Limited optics strong early showing

[truespode]

54 minutes ago, shred said:

That's pretty much true for any division and a sufficiently-skilled top shooter.  

 

Doesn't keep them from turning into 'you must have this hotness pistol' divisions though.  Glock .40s have been legal for limited since before STIs were but about nobody shoots one; they all have custom 2011s no matter how good they aren't.

 

 

Yeah... Bling factor and choice. I don't mind that.

 

I admit when I raced dirt bikes I put thousands of aftermarket parts on it and they didn't make me any faster

 

Those are personal decisions and not competitively necessary. There isn't an answer that will please everyone but I have no issues with things as is.

 

But I'm definitely not normal according to my wife

[Schutzenmeister]

Hmmm ... It sounds like we're back to the primordial question:

 

Is it the Indian, or the arrow?

.

.

.

.

Oh d%#n!  Is that cultural appropriation? Racism?  Politically incorrect?

 

 

Who cares ... It frames the question!

 

 

 

[2011BLDR]

State championship coming in Sep

[RJH]

6 hours ago, 2011BLDR said:

State championship coming in Sep

 

Wow 

 

I am  an optimist on the division, and that still surprises me. What state?

Edited July 2, 2023 by RJH

[shred]

I'm just surprised you have 15 Single Stack shooters

 

[ColoradoNick]

Colorado state match and New Mexico below. I imagine more people will switch after these matches.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by ColoradoNick

[2011BLDR]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Wow 

 

I am  an optimist on the division, and that still surprises me. What state?

AZ, hart of Area 2...

[Boomstick303]

On 6/30/2023 at 9:59 PM, motosapiens said:

but don't like reloading or are worried about recoil.

 

I think it is funny because you don't care to invest in a dying caliber that you "Don't Like Recoil".  Make all the assumptions you want.  I have no issue shooting 40 and most likely would invest in 40 caliber LO pistol if they did make it a Minor/Major Division.  Shooting 40 caliber guns are amazing and a blast to shoot and its most likely my favorite caliber.  However, I cannot currently see investing in a caliber I personally do not see growing in popularity anytime soon.  In fact it is my opinion that 40 is dying across the board.  Essentially 40 only exists for shooting sports which is such a small segment of the gun market who knows what the future holds for that caliber, let alone Major in USPSA in general.  I have commented more times than I can count, I was fine shooting CO as currently constructed and have no issues with it.  I can shoot my 2011s anytime I like, and shoot them regularly in multi gun sports.  I personally DIDN"T wish for USPSA to create LO, but for me and many others it is cool they did.   If my memory serves me correct, you said the USPSA board should put it to a membership vote and they did upon which the USPSA board created the division the majority of what the people voted for, YET YOU STILL KEEP CRYING ABOUT IT.

 

As far as reloading you comment is hilarious considering you shoot Limited and keep crying about allowing Major in LO so all you have to do is mill your Limited guns to play.  LO pretty much requires only one reload the same as every other popular division is USPSA today.  Open, Limited, CO and LO pretty much require one reload any just about any course of fire in today's USPSA.  Occasionally open will get away with not having to reload.  

 

Your ramblings make as much sense as all of the rest of them and much like @RJH's comments about a month ago I am over them.  We get it.  YOU'RE A MAN'S MAN,  You shoot A MAN'S CALIBER.  Great have fun.  The rest of us can have fun with a caliber that is probably going to stick around way longer than 40.   2011s are a great platform.  There should be a division where they can play without having to shoot Major to be competitive.  You can cry all you want about how 9 mm is a pansy caliber, but the majority of the world DOES NOT CARE! 

 

P.S.  I would be pissed too if I had a ton of money invested in 40 caliber equipment to watch it die a slow death.  I guess a part of me understands your angst.  What I don't understand is constantly projecting that angst onto other people.  

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Boomstick303

[truespode]

11 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

YET YOU STILL KEEP CRYING ABOUT IT.

 

 

I didn't see him as crying about it. I think that there are two camps, which I see as a common theme in almost everything USPSA...

 

1) Those who play this as a hobby (me) and don't have as much invested emotionally and are going to shoot whatever yet will still ask for more. Personally, as a hobby I want more divisions. I don't mind people shooting just for a "participation trophy" since that would increase numbers overall. I realize that waters down things but I know of more expensive hobbies with just as much limited volunteers that do well because of the inclusion of "participation trophy" type classes/divisions. More participation also yields more volunteers which we have very few of.

 

2) Those that take this as a competition and sees everyone in that same vain (where I think he is coming from). I think that a lot in this area want slow changes or more consistency long term to judge comparisons in competition and prevent competitive inequity long term. As much as I don't mind the changes in CO awhile back they did change the challenges of the division. These guys benefit from the hobbyists because it gives them more people to beat

 

In the end that is what makes these discussions fun. Disagreeing from different perspectives.

The funny part is no perspective, other than being more lenient on safety, is wrong. USPSA is just a bunch of agreed upon rules that can change at any time based upon different leadership and different whims. Bylaws control that to an extent but still very amendable.

[Bigzona]

1 hour ago, truespode said:

 

I didn't see him as crying about it. I think that there are two camps, which I see as a common theme in almost everything USPSA...

 

1) Those who play this as a hobby (me) and don't have as much invested emotionally and are going to shoot whatever yet will still ask for more. Personally, as a hobby I want more divisions. I don't mind people shooting just for a "participation trophy" since that would increase numbers overall. I realize that waters down things but I know of more expensive hobbies with just as much limited volunteers that do well because of the inclusion of "participation trophy" type classes/divisions. More participation also yields more volunteers which we have very few of.

 

2) Those that take this as a competition and sees everyone in that same vain (where I think he is coming from). I think that a lot in this area want slow changes or more consistency long term to judge comparisons in competition and prevent competitive inequity long term. As much as I don't mind the changes in CO awhile back they did change the challenges of the division. These guys benefit from the hobbyists because it gives them more people to beat

 

In the end that is what makes these discussions fun. Disagreeing from different perspectives.

The funny part is no perspective, other than being more lenient on safety, is wrong. USPSA is just a bunch of agreed upon rules that can change at any time based upon different leadership and different whims. Bylaws control that to an extent but still very amendable.

 

Comprehensive and balanced.  We all shoot for different reasons and have different motivations for investing time and money in this sport.  Ultimately it's a hobby for the vast majority....go have fun with what you like to have fun with, and don't be mad at others that define in a different way. Happy that LO is here....more ways to have fun. Carry on!

[Darqusoull13]

On 7/2/2023 at 9:23 AM, shred said:

I'm just surprised you have 15 Single Stack shooters

 

And 2(!!!) token Wheel Gunners? Must be a big match 

[SufferInSilence]

I was one of the first LO shooters in central Florida when it launched.  I’m seeing the numbers rise out here.  

Considering the accessories and technology that predated COs release, it’s what CO evolved into that is unnatural.  Just as Glocks, XDs, HK, and everything else both Maj & Min were always allowed in Limited so they are also allowed in LO (wether someone “wants” to use them or not is irrelevant).  CO became less practical than the division was originally designed to be and exclusionary (no custom guns, no SAO), LO fixes that while doing away with the production gun list.  
 

All the crying about the division is lame AF.  In the end it’s the Indian not the arrow.  I Shot that 4.25” Prodigy with 170mm mags in Open/Minor for a month and consistently beat out good Open and PCC dudes and was top 5 OA.  Then I get my butt kicked by dudes with plastic guns all the time.  It’s you… not the gun.  
While you’re reading this, the guy that always beats you is training.   

[waynes_world_45]

Run divisions by Power Factor, then break out by weight or special category and then by Iron/optic.

 

Plastic guns are light, metal guns are heavy.

Open gets comps and 170 mags

SS could even get a 140 mag

 

1) Major- Light irons, light Optics, heavy irons, heavy optics, SS irons, SS optics, L10 irons, L10 Optics, Revo irons, Revo optics, and finally Open.

All 140mm mags except open. All major scoring

 

2) Minor -  light irons, light Optics, heavy irons, heavy Optics, SS irons, SS optics, L10 irons, L10 optics, Revo irons, Revo optics, and finally Open

All 140mm mags, except open. All minor scoring 

 

*Award Major irons, Major optics, minor irons, minor optics as special wins. 

 

Before the boomers(and I'm one) poo poo on the # of divisions...we have computers now...It's Easy to set up on Practiscore.

 

Drop down menu choices

 

1. Choose PF, major or minor 

2. Choose light(plastic), heavy (metal), SS, L10, Revo, Open

3. Choose irons or optics.

 

Obviously this needs some specificity (weight limit delineation etc), but it covers everything I can think of.

 

Divisions that currently don't run 140 mags...run what you have until you can pick up some. 

 

Yes it waters down the divisions, but it allows full diversity and prevents migration to the perceived golden ticket. 

 

Using The current divisions as comparison, An open gun will win a fantasy division Major optic, a limited gun will win a fantasy division Major irons, A CO or LO gun will win a fantasy division minor optics. A production gun (plastic or metal) will win a fantasy division minor irons. 

 

I have donned my fire suit...flame away...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by waynes_world_45

[motosapiens]

On 7/1/2023 at 4:14 PM, Schutzenmeister said:

Hmmm ... It sounds like we're back to the primordial question:

 

Is it the Indian, or the arrow?

 

 

it's mostly the indian, but an indian with crappy cheap arrows will be less successful than a similarly skilled and prepared indian with higher quality arrows. That is why all the top shooters in limited use 2011's unless they are paid to use something else.

[shred]

Plus Indians would way rather buy new bows and arrows than actually practice

 

[truespode]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

That is why all the top shooters in limited use 2011's unless they are paid to use something else.

 

So, should divisions be setup to cater just to the top shooters?

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, truespode said:

 

So, should divisions be setup to cater just to the top shooters?

That's not at all my point. In fact, it's almost the opposite.

 

What I'm saying is that custom 2011's are objectively better and more desirable than mass-market guns when it comes to racing, and if you don't have divisions where normal duty/carry guns are not disadvantaged, then all divisions will be dominated by custom 2011's. I like to shoot custom 2011's too, but I think it would be a shame for people to not be able to shoot their actual carry/duty/defensive gun (or something very close to it) in a competition situation without feeling like they don't have a chance.  I think the sport of practical shooting is more practical and more relevant if it has divisions where typical duty/carry guns can be competitive. Currently those guns are things like sig 320, whatever s#!tty glock is comparable, cz sp01, etc....

 

People (especially motorcyclists and shooters) are tinkerers too tho, so we also need divisions where people can spend money and change stuff and customize and enjoy themselves. I think USPSA is pretty close to getting it right with the girly 9mm optics divisions. As discussed previously, I would just roll back CO a little bit to make it more duty/carry oriented, and less race oriented, and let people decide if they want to shoot big mags and mag wells, and custom 2011's in LO or lighter-weight standard capacity striker/DA guns that are reasonably carryable in CO.

 

Personally with my bone-stock shadow2, I'd probably be comfortable either shooting 15-17 rounds and no magwells in CO, or shooting racey LO with mag extensions. I'd probably just shoot whichever one had the most heat and participation. If the weight limit excluded my shadow2 from CO, I wouldn't cry. It would actually probably mean more heat in LO.

[SufferInSilence]

2 hours ago, truespode said:

 

So, should divisions be setup to cater just to the top shooters?

Exactly… NO! This sport does not/should  not focus on the “TOP” shooters. It was never designed so that Elite GMs and billion dollar gun companies can throw their peckers around vía cheap jerseys and s#!tty eyewear with whatever flash-in-the-pan shooter is lobbing rounds the fastest currently.  
 

Last year there were less than 200 level 2 and up events nationwide while they’re over 4K level one events.  
This sport thrives at the local level-one tier.   
Very few GMs shoot their local level 1s. Even fewer show up early or stay late to setup or break down a match yet the elite 1% make a living off our efforts.  So, F-em! Nothing wrong with it but still F-em.  Congrats on being the best (seriously) but pick up a few fault lines on the way out.   

 

Limited Optics is here to stay, pretty much as-is.  Shoot it or don’t.  Or go to church on Sunday morning.   USPSA will thrive on without any one specific group of cry baby.   
 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by SufferInSilence

[truespode]

41 minutes ago, SufferInSilence said:

Very few GMs shoot their local level 1s. Even fewer show up early or stay late to setup or break down a match 

 

I'm spoiled then. If it wasn't for 3 GM's (2 of which recently finished in the top 30 range at CO Nats) I believe we wouldn't have had our sectional match and definitely wouldn't have the level of locals we do.

 

It's sad that more GMs don't help but I have witnessed more GM's and M's in my area doing the most work. They set a high bar in performance and work. 

 

As for LO and CO I really like both the way they are. I admit there isn't much difference for me as I just put a magwell on my FN so making changes that separate them more makes sense in some way but I think reducing capacity isn't one of them. With all the new shooters I have talked to (and many are older) to a person they said they don't like lo cap like what they say they see in IDPA and all preferred CO because they can buy a gun off the shelf, two mag extensions and be good to go.

 

Most don't understand the difference between LO and CO but they do know they like loading to 22 rounds. Other changes may go unnoticed but capacity is one that won't, IMO.

 

Those same new shooters also have tried out local PCSL and first thing they asked is he many rounds can they load

[Joe4d]

3 hours ago, truespode said:

 

I'm spoiled then. If it wasn't for 3 GM's (2 of which recently finished in the top 30 range at CO Nats) I believe we wouldn't have had our sectional match and definitely wouldn't have the level of locals we do.

 

It's sad that more GMs don't help but I have witnessed more GM's and M's in my area doing the most work. They set a high bar in performance and work. 

 

As for LO and CO I really like both the way they are. I admit there isn't much difference for me as I just put a magwell on my FN so making changes that separate them more makes sense in some way but I think reducing capacity isn't one of them. With all the new shooters I have talked to (and many are older) to a person they said they don't like lo cap like what they say they see in IDPA and all preferred CO because they can buy a gun off the shelf, two mag extensions and be good to go.

 

Most don't understand the difference between LO and CO but they do know they like loading to 22 rounds. Other changes may go unnoticed but capacity is one that won't, IMO.

 

Those same new shooters also have tried out local PCSL and first thing they asked is he many rounds can they load

Which is why they shoulda simply done away with mag limit in production and call it good.
 LO ? LOL,,, doing nothing but cannibalizing other divisions. No really sure what the point of it was.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Joe4d

[shred]

Its way easier for the BOD to make a new division than change an old one.  So pretty soon we end up with more divisions than NHRA Drag Racing and the same number of Nationals to boot.

 

Quote

The four Professional categories are Top Fuel, Funny Car, Pro Stock, and Pro Stock Motorcycle. They, along with Top Alcohol Dragster and Top Alcohol Funny Car, the three "Super" classes – Super Comp, Super Gas, and Super Street – and Pro Mod feature a single class of vehicle in heads-up competition. Comp, Super Stock, and Stock are made up of a variety of classes and use a handicap starting system to equalize competition. Top Dragster and Top Sportsman feature a single class of vehicle in bracket-style competition.

 

https://www.nhra.com/schedule/2023

 

[Darqusoull13]

17 hours ago, shred said:

Plus Indians would way rather buy new bows and arrows than actually practice

 

Great concept for a new division!

[truespode]

18 hours ago, shred said:

Plus Indians would way rather buy new bows and arrows than actually practice

 

 

We're talking about Practice? Practice? Not a game. Practice.

[mikeg1005]

18 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

Exactly… NO! This sport does not/should  not focus on the “TOP” shooters. It was never designed so that Elite GMs

 

WTF is an elite GM? 

[SufferInSilence]

1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

WTF is an elite GM? 

- The good ones.  Not the ones that got lucky on a couple of classifiers.   
 

- The ones with top dollar sponsorship

 

- The ones that go to natz and win

 

- The ones with lil stud boy jerseys everyone wants to copy after. 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by SufferInSilence