Limited optics strong early showing

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Our local match this coming Sunday

Division
Limited	13
Limited 10	0
Open	9
Production	5
Revolver	0
Single Stack	3
Carry Optics	32
Pcc	6
Limited Optics	7

Is this your first limited optics match? That's not a bad showing if it is, and hell even if it's number two LOL.

 

Though I do expect limited optics numbers to be artificially high at locals for a little while. Because I reckon a lot of people will just get classified with their carryouts gun. That was why I thought the area 4 data was so interesting

Edited May 26, 2023 by RJH

[RJH]

On the Caspian note, I used to have a Caspian open gun I bought well used, it had a slide Rider on it, and that damn thing would shoot 38 super 38 super comp and 9 mil. Major or minor it didn't care. It was old enough it just had a ported barrel. If I still had it I'd probably weld those ports up real crappy with my mig and it would be a sweet limited optics blaster

[Sarge]

22 minutes ago, RJH said:

Is this your first limited optics match? That's not a bad showing if it is, and hell even if it's number two LOL.

 

Though I do expect limited optics numbers to be artificially high at locals for a little while. Because I reckon a lot of people will just get classified with their carryouts gun. That was why I thought the area 4 data was so interesting

First match. LO is 4th behind CO, L, Open. Just a little under 10% for LO.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

First match. LO is 4th behind CO, L, Open. Just a little under 10% for LO.

 

I'd say that's a pretty strong showing for the first match. That's ahead of five other divisions, only two shooters off of Open. I don't know about in your area but back when carryops started we only had one or two shooters for the first couple of years. Even after they allowed 140s it took a little while to get rolling here, of course it's huge now

[Racinready300ex]

This is our Area match coming up this summer. Really that's not bad, especially when you consider the match was full before LO was even voted on. That means 19 people switched from something else. L10 and revolver are having pretty strong showings too but still noting on the new division.

[shred]

12 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think it was somewhat gun dependent. A good gun wasn't picky about mags or even OAL. Other 2011's seemed to need tuned mags and to be loaded really long or they didn't work. There are tons of old threads here about tuning mags I'm sure.

 

I ran gen 1 mags in my limited gun for a long time with no tuning and I didn't need to load long. It just ate everything. You want to talk old skool and sketchy mags, I have a Caspian open gun from the 90's. Now that's picky AF about everything lol.  

Early STI mags with the two ribs down the side were problematic for 9x19, especially factory OAL because of where the rib landed on the case.  They worked great for Super & Supercomp with their longer cases.  You can install spacers and tune them and they'd run perfect, but not so much out of the box.  The newer designs with one large rib are much more forgiving.

[HOGRIDER]

On 5/24/2023 at 10:26 AM, RJH said:

It would be interesting if somebody like Christian sailor showed up to shoot limited optics. Wonder if something like that would draw other competitors in or just scare them all off

Not sure if this event drew National attention; but he was competing with a DS9..........

[HOGRIDER]

On 5/25/2023 at 2:57 PM, whan said:

One point that hasn't been mentioned is the relative reliability and maintenance upkeep of 2011s vs. a CZ based platform (excluding Open which is its own separate thing).

 

I shot single stack minor for 2.5 years before switching to CO and landing on a Tanfo. One of the key reasons I'd be hesitant to switch to LO using a 2011 now is the lower reliability of the 2011/1911 platform. I seem to see far more 2011s choke or have issues, both pre-LO and now with provisional LO vs. people shooting CZ platforms. While I agree I'd likely shoot a 2011 that 5% better than my tanfo, I'm actually not sure if it's worth the relative tradeoff in reliability if it means the increased possibility of having a bad malfunction that would drop a stage much more than that. I also feel more comfortable with extended cleaning intervals on my Tanfo vs. my 1911, especially shooting 9mm, which is just nice overall not worrying too much about cleaning before local matches

After a brief season in Production using an S2 Orange, and now switching (from CO) back to the 2011 platform for LO, I can respectfully disagree as IMO the function/operation of the CZ fire control group is extremely more complicated that that of a 1911/2011!  And I honestly feel the historical data would prove that platform to be one of the most reliable/easily maintained designs ever used in competition.

 

As @ltdmstrnoted in his experience, I think the numbers speak for themselves!

 

[RuckUp]

On 5/26/2023 at 6:19 AM, Gunner66 said:

I think that once you see more and more top shooters in major matches competing in LO that more and more A Class/M Class shooter will want to jump into LO.  "if you build it they will come"  The industry is already well out in from of equipment with SA optic ready and adding a magwell on your CO Canik/Glock/CZ....and there you have it.

 

 

I can see this happening.  And I think this has been discussed, but to what degree will LO cause an exodus of sorts from CO to LO? (assuming LO becomes official)  And not just with GM/M/A, but all.  There's been a lot of talk about people leaving a particular division (Prod, L10) due to low attendance and less competition.  How much difference is there between LO and CO?  LO gives you major/minor, a better trigger, probably better accuracy, in a rather large market place of parts, gunsmiths, etc.  I think the affinity divisions (SS, Revolver) will remain fairly stable because shooters really like the platform they're using.

So, could we we see more consolidation/abandoning of the "smaller" divisions?  In the end, do folks really want to shoot what the top competitors are shooting to see how they compare?  Are we going back to the 1980's and 90's?
 

[MikeBurgess]

3 minutes ago, RuckUp said:

How much difference is there between LO and CO?  LO gives you major/minor, 
 

Minor only in LO

[ColoradoNick]

1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

Minor only in LO

For now... There's a lot of people with limited guns in .40 pissed that there is no major scoring. I could see them adding major/minor scoring to LO next year when it's no longer provisional. Which also makes me not want to spend any amount of real money on a LO gun even though I have a DWX. If LO stays minor I will likely make the switch next year. If they add Major scoring I will stick to CO or at least not use a dedicated LO gun for competing in LO. 

[shred]

Would the .40 shooters be happier if there was a mag cap limit so the 40s and 9's could compete heads-up in LO Minor with the same amount of ammo?

 

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, shred said:

Would the .40 shooters be happier if there was a mag cap limit so the 40s and 9's could compete heads-up in LO Minor with the same amount of ammo?

 

 

 

I brought this up a while back and think it's the greatest idea ever. Put a MAG cap at 20 and call it good. 20 round 9mm 2011 mags can be had for 40 bucks, and everybody with a 40 already has a 20 round mag more than likely. I think that's the best way to bridge the past and the future. Then you get the 40 cal guns back in service and they'll last for basically ever shooting minor, and  you have the 9 mm guns that are readily available and being produced for the guys buying their stuff. And you can use cheap readily available ammo if you want nine, or you were probably already loading if you were shooting 40

 

 

PS I say all that as a guy who has already spent money on 9 mm mags that hold 23 rounds

Edited June 19, 2023 by RJH

[ColoradoNick]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

 

I brought this up a while back and think it's the greatest idea ever. Put a MAG cap at 20 and call it good. 20 round 9mm 2011 mags can be had for 40 bucks, and everybody with a 40 already has a 20 round mag more than likely. I think that's the best way to bridge the past and the future. Then you get the 40 cal guns back in service and they'll last for basically ever shooting minor, and  you have the 9 mm guns that are readily available and being produced for the guys buying their stuff. And you can use cheap readily available ammo if you want nine, or you were probably already loading if you were shooting 40

 

 

PS I say all that as a guy who has already spent money on 9 mm mags that hold 23 rounds

And equal scoring… 

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, ColoradoNick said:

And equal scoring… 

 

 

Of course equal scoring, that's why I mentioned 40s shooting minor would last basically forever. Seems like the obvious win-win to me

[RJH]

One other advantage to making 20 round mag limits a thing in limited optics would be a person could then make a viable dual division gun if they wanted. You can build a 40 with a removable optics plate or something, and have irons as well. Then you could load minor 40 and shoot limited optics with a dot, or take the dot off and load up major and go shoot limited. So in theory it might even bump up limited numbers, but probably not

 

That  sounds better and better the more I think about it

Edited June 19, 2023 by RJH

[Schutzenmeister]

 

The only way to enforce a rounds loaded rule is to require the ROs to have to COUNT the rounds fired.  I'll be D#*%&D if I want to have to count to 20 over and over again just to satisfy this issue!

[ColoradoNick]

5 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

The only way to enforce a rounds loaded rule is to require the ROs to have to COUNT the rounds fired.  I'll be D#*%&D if I want to have to count to 20 over and over again just to satisfy this issue!

How does that differ from Production?

[GigG]

Just now, ColoradoNick said:

How does that differ from Production?

 10

[ColoradoNick]

Just now, GigG said:

 10

[RJH]

23 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

The only way to enforce a rounds loaded rule is to require the ROs to have to COUNT the rounds fired.  I'll be D#*%&D if I want to have to count to 20 over and over again just to satisfy this issue!

 

 

This is a non issue. We already count to 10 in production, ipsc counts to 15 in production, having a 20 round mag is not a big deal. If your ROing a 22 plus round stage and a guy does it without a reload, then he's cheating. And if your ROing stage that's bigger than  that, everybody's going to be reloading at some point anyway, and anything out of the ordinary is going to show up fairly obviously. So still, non-issue. 

[RuckUp]

3 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Minor only in LO

 

Thanks!  My bad.

[shred]

Yeah, stop counting shots and count reloads.

 

If it's a huge thing, maybe somebody can invent an electronic gizmo that counts shots.  Even cooler would be if it recorded the time in between them.

 

If shenanigans are suspected, detail an extra RO to count shots or do snap mag inspections.  A few public unsportsmanlike-conduct DQs and problem solved another way.

 

[davsco]

59 minutes ago, shred said:

Yeah, stop counting shots and count reloads.

 

If it's a huge thing, maybe somebody can invent an electronic gizmo that counts shots.  Even cooler would be if it recorded the time in between them.

 

If shenanigans are suspected, detail an extra RO to count shots or do snap mag inspections.  A few public unsportsmanlike-conduct DQs and problem solved another way.

 

counting to ten isn't a big deal for the RO nor for the shooter reloading his mags.  20 is a bigger deal for both and easy to lose count or get it wrong.   am i at 18 or 19 in the mag, crap, empty the mag and start over.  yeah, shot timers have counters but we don't always catch every shot on the timer.  and for guys that reload before running dry (as it should be of course...), no one is going to be 'caught' unless we're counting the rounds in the discarded mags.  having a mag length rule and not a round count rule is way easier for both the shooter and the RO.

[rishii]

I’d be happy with major/minor in LO and a 140 mag limit

40 major, higher points for shooting for C/D hits, a few less rounds n the mag

9 minor, less point for C/D hit, but more ammo in the mag

similar to SS  major/ minor