Primers prices

[Johnnymazz]

CCI I can get for 80.00 perk 1K. Thats a bulk order of 50,000 no tax and no hazmat

[Miranda]

45 minutes ago, Pure2j said:

Payed $90 a brick yesterday from a commercial reloader. CCI told him primers will be increasing in price for the next year and a half. 

 

After a year an a half ? the prices may flow upward...  buuuuuut, from now to a year-ish, CCI may want to up their prices and they will not... Should they try, they will struggle to sell any primers loaded ammo or not.....

 

....hmmmm....   ok.  it is possible the commercial reloader is getting primers at 10 to 20 USD per K.

in that unlikely case, yeah CCI has room to up the price.

 

miranda

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:58 PM, Postal Bob said:

Lately there's been a lot of foreign made primers making it to the market, Wolf, Ginex, Servicious, etc. And not only are they available, they've been selling for less than the American made primers. So what gives?

They saw a market opportunity and they took it.

 

 

On 2/2/2023 at 1:58 PM, Postal Bob said:

Since when does a foreign product cost less than an American product?

Where the f*#k have you been?  Tons of examples of foreign made products of equal or better quality at a better price over the last 40 years.

 

On 2/2/2023 at 1:58 PM, Postal Bob said:

And what happened to made in America, buy American?

I buy the best quality for the money regardless of where it comes from

 

On 2/2/2023 at 1:58 PM, Postal Bob said:

Why are the American manufacturers letting the foreigners gain control?

As long as I get primers, I don't care.

 

 

On 2/2/2023 at 1:58 PM, Postal Bob said:

Something is very wrong here.

Not for the consumer

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 2/3/2023 at 3:53 PM, rifleman777 said:

Has anyone recently tried any of the foreign brands of small pistol primers and can say anything about the quality?  For 209 shotgun primers, I’ve switched completely over to Cheddite (French) primers…..excellent quality and about 40% less than American…..IF you can find them.

 

Ive fired about a combined 15K rounds loaded with Murom (Russian) and Ginex (Serbian) primers and they've worked just fine

[Miranda]

how much does it cost to make a primer?   I hear you ask...

 

At retail prices  brass sheet is about 25 bucks a square foot
at 1/4 square per primer 144x16 is 2304 primer cups and I expect
you can use any left over for the anvils without extra  brass being purchased.
that is about 12 bucks per K...  and we are at retail.

 

The chemicals are not at all expensive but lets agree that a retail
jug of powder is a similar price.  Primers and powder have similar source chemicals.
Even if the process is different, The price of the synthesis is similar.
Priming compounds are used in far lower volumes than any pistol cartridge.
So we can assume that a pound of priming compound will fill more than 4k primers
so 7 dollars per K...  and again we are at retail. (28 USD pound of powder)

 

I have heard many guesses on the price of packaging...  lets go with two bucks.
This is a complete guess for me.  and I'll round up a lot.

 

There! A set of reasoned numbers to explain 25 dollars for a thousand primers
delivered at retail. (that is over. 12 + 7 + 2 == > 21 bucks)   
If you have numbers from better authorities, I'll use them.

This is as generous a cost estimate as I can generate.  
It is using retail prices to create the estimate and comparing to retail primers.

And is still far lower than the prices primer makers want us to bear.

The foreign primers may cost less to make, a possibility I do not believe has real truth.
The cost of shipping them here and getting them past US Customs
adds to the cost or retail price... and yet here they are at lower prices.

 

As far as I know these primers were not in the US market 3 plus years back.
so them foreigners may see a profit to be made...

 

 I will allow that black markets are a problem. 

.
There are ways to discourage it
One is to avoid restricting production...
Another is to raise the price from the factory.  A lot.
(this is what we seem to have and is hard to see as different from greed...)
Yet another way is for consumers to only buy from authorized retail outfits.
(This one requires retailers to shy away from potential large profits...)

 

To be clear, the price of manufacture is not related in any meaningful way

to the current cost of primers.

 

And now we get to the boring logic part of what I see.

 

I am very sure that 25 dollars per thousand is a reasonable retail price.

(as of Feb 2023) 

 

I have heard there is an opportunity lost to sell that thousand
primers in loaded ammunition.
ok...  a thousand 22 long rifle rounds are 80 to 90 dollars.
what is the current price of a thousand primers and do you really think
a primer costs more to make?
Yes I can understand ammo makers do not want primer Biz.
not enough profit for the effort.

 

Here is why I am well past unhappy with US primer makers.
If (do not skip that if.) they bumped the prices to control black marketeers,

then all types of primers should have remained available.
There is no reason to state "We are making all the ammo we can,
so we are dropping the lower profit primer market." 

That price bump is nothing except profit and we have clear proof.

It may stop black marketing on primers and there is no way primers are lower profit

after that 'bump'

The price of primers currently, and even more a year ago, are at
similar prices as the ammo or cover all the lost profit of a round.
( can you see the real profit numbers for ammo? )

 

If brand loyalty or 'buy american' is important to you,
I would think you would expect the US makers to return that favor
and tend to their customer's needs.
This customer would be you.  (do you feel the love?)

Right now I am trying real hard to see a way to remain loyal.
I happen to have a 17HMR. 

I know of only one outfit that makes ammo for it.
Once I am shot of that, I will look at real options to re-chamber it.
I need a tire iron, so who knows.

 

and an aside on  qualities...

I doubt I have popped a thousand rounds through the above 17HMR

and I have 12 FTF rounds.  most have been struck three times.

my fail rate is a bit higher as I try to pop them and some do so on a second strike.

so them foreign primers with a FTF rate of 1 in 10K is way better than my

rate with my 17HMR.

 

miranda

[Nolan]

You left out the cost of labor, ie wages, benefits, etc..., the cost of property taxes building maintenance, licensing, inspections - explosives, remember- machine maintenance, etc... Yes, the cost of materials is relatively cheap, when you can get it.  Supply chain is a major problem right now.  I'm a manufacturing engineer in the Automated Test Equipment industry.  I design and build electronic test equipment for use testing the printed circuit boards, power supplies, and the chip testing machines themselves, that our company sells.  Right now I'm waiting on what used to be commonly available 200 watt wire wound resistors that now have a 60 week lead time.  Unfortunately, I need 150 of them now and there aren't any available worldwide.

 

Nolan

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Nolan

[ysrracer]

Again, why is ammo double the price, but primers are triple or quadruple?

[Miranda]

Hi Nolan, 

Let me solve a problem for you.  If you have no problem with induction in your resistor,

use a lathe and wind your resistors.   I made a ammeter shunt that way.

use fiberglass rods from fishing poles for fire and heat resistance.

... or alu spools covered with Kapton tape....

ETA: 200 watts...   I'd go with aluminum and kapton tape...  oh that is a lot of power...

 

 

I did include all addition things you want to add by using RETAIL prices for the items in the primers.

Powder is some price per pound and I am willing to use that as a price for priming compound.

I want to be more certain here, the price of the primer compound is lower than powder,

from what I can tell, for the chemicals.  it is hard to tell about the process to make.

As both are 'dangerous' the costs to produce them will be similar. 

 

If you want me to use prices per pound and sort in amortization of machines and dies

and wages and property capital costs etc  weeeell...

I can whistle that tune and the point is more clear that primers cost less than 20USD.

including all those items you mentioned...

I also do not think many will take my word for those items.

 

The question on how 1000 22LR rounds are at 70-80 dollars pretty much

make it clear that primers at prices over that 70-80 is profitable.

 

I absolutely can accept I am wrong in my estimate.  for you to convince me of that?

You will need to bring more to this  discussion than  "buddy, you didn't include in your estimate 

a bunch of details no one will share."

 

Last way to say this. In the later part of 2019  I bought primers in cabellas for 26 dollars per thousand.

if inflation is 10 percent per year we get... year2020 26 plus 2.6 for 29 bucks

and 2021 is 29 plus 3 for 32... and 2022 is 32 plus another 3 for a generous 35 USD per K.

 

We have not yet gotten to the time to add another 10 percent for this year ...

so lets add it anyway

2023 will be an expected 35 plus 3.5 and we can call that 40.   This is retail prices.

I am not claiming any insider knowledge for the manufacture of anything in this example. 

 

of note... the US Government thinks inflation is far lower than 10 percent over those 4 years...

The profit margin is quite clear.  

 

I can't push our US based primer makers to do what is Right here.

They do need to know the veil of deceptions they put up is transparent.

I will keep it in my mind when I get to choose Ginex or CCI.

 

miranda

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Miranda
marked edit add.

[Farmer]

My take on some of it is that maybe they figure if they are expensive enough that people won’t hoard them and that’ll make more time to catch up. Just like gas, R12, R134, fertilizer, and other things they don’t want you to have or waste it so made it so expensive that you’re much more careful and conservative with it. But if “you gotta have it” you’re gonna pay the price and they’ll make the profit. I know it sucks!    From what I’ve seen, primer production is very labor intensive and appears quite slow so there’s that. I don’t know if it’s been or can be mechanized or not but I would think that could lower the price and increase production. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Farmer
Spelling

[rifleman777]

15 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Ive fired about a combined 15K rounds loaded with Murom (Russian) and Ginex (Serbian) primers and they've worked just fine

Thanks.  Do you have a feel for how hard the cups are relative to American primer cups?

[Pure2j]

18 hours ago, Miranda said:

 

After a year an a half ? the prices may flow upward...  buuuuuut, from now to a year-ish, CCI may want to up their prices and they will not... Should they try, they will struggle to sell any primers loaded ammo or not.....

 

....hmmmm....   ok.  it is possible the commercial reloader is getting primers at 10 to 20 USD per K.

in that unlikely case, yeah CCI has room to up the price.

 

miranda

With them selling out everywhere at $80-$100 per k what is the incentive for them to lower the price? I don’t think it will happen until they have hundreds of thousands in every store and with the way people horde ammo and components I don’t think it’s going to happen for a long time. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, rifleman777 said:

Thanks.  Do you have a feel for how hard the cups are relative to American primer cups?

ginex are slightly harder than cci, probably even slightly harder than s&b. no issues with SA guns (1911/2011), but an 11-12lb spring in a cz  shadow had 1-2% light strikes. We also experienced light strikes in a sig p320 legion. 

[rifleman777]

Thanks!

[HesedTech]

26 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

but an 11-12lb spring in a cz  shadow had 1-2% light strikes.

Using Ginex, both brass and chromed, almost exclusively now in Shadow 2 with 11.5 spring, zero light strikes in thousands of rounds. Same with a Glock 17 and other guns.  I do seat them as deep as they will go. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Make no mistake we are getting the shaft !

Most People don’t like admitting to themselves that they been scammed or been taken advantage of, I’m sure there’s a clinical term. 
maybe it’s because to make that realization demands a response. 
or to just take it. 
Wow, it’s kinda like a lot of things nowadays. Weird right ?!!! 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, rifleman777 said:

Thanks.  Do you have a feel for how hard the cups are relative to American primer cups?

 

No idea.  I don't have the equipment to measure cup hardness.

 

I do know that my Shadow 2 with an 11.5 lb hammer spring and reduced power FP spring will fire them.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

There is some seriously erroneous mfg cost accounting in this thread.......LOL

[Postal Bob]

13 hours ago, ysrracer said:

Again, why is ammo double the price, but primers are triple or quadruple?

Good question. But ammo has come down, and is far less than double the price it used to be. But primers like stated, are still up there in price, 3-4 times the price they once were.

[Miranda]

2 hours ago, Pure2j said:

With them selling out everywhere at $80-$100 per k what is the incentive for them to lower the price? I don’t think it will happen until they have hundreds of thousands in every store and with the way people horde ammo and components I don’t think it’s going to happen for a long time. 

Hi Pure2j,

what incentive is there to lower the price, you ask...

as a generic answer  If some other outfit is selling the same sort of item at a lower price,

sales will will stop.  The incentive is that in order to make money you must sell.

To sell in a market where your competition has the same product at a lower price

you must lower your price.   Often called maintaining market share.

here in the US... our primer makers have decided on a different option,

they do not sell primers.

 

BTW,  having ammo supplies for your next 10 years needs is not hording.

That is like having a 5 gallon can of gas for your generator.

 

miranda

 

 

[ysrracer]

10 minutes ago, Miranda said:

 

BTW,  having ammo supplies for your next 10 years needs is not hording.

That is like having a 5 gallon can of gas for your generator.

 

I know guys in their 60's, 70's, 80's that are still buying primers and ammo, and they hardly shoot because they don't have enough.

 

I think they have a problem

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, HesedTech said:

Using Ginex, both brass and chromed, almost exclusively now in Shadow 2 with 11.5 spring, zero light strikes in thousands of rounds. Same with a Glock 17 and other guns.  I do seat them as deep as they will go. 

glad you have had better luck. for us, it has been inconsistent. the first few hundred ran great, then we got some light strikes so we switched back to federal for matches. Maybe we just got 1 bad batch, but it's just as easy for me to use them in my limited gun since that's what I'm shooting this year.

[ranger]

1 hour ago, ysrracer said:

 

I know guys in their 60's, 70's, 80's that are still buying primers and ammo, and they hardly shoot because they don't have enough.

 

I think they have a problem

Better return than CDs

[ysrracer]

2 hours ago, ranger said:

Better return than CDs

 

I keep all my crypto under my bed. That guy Bankman-Fraud ain't getting mine.

[RudyVey]

Do not believe the prices come down anytime soon. We are getting milked....and they make super profits.

[Nolan]

20 hours ago, Miranda said:

Hi Nolan, 

Let me solve a problem for you.  If you have no problem with induction in your resistor,

use a lathe and wind your resistors.   I made a ammeter shunt that way.

use fiberglass rods from fishing poles for fire and heat resistance.

... or alu spools covered with Kapton tape....

ETA: 200 watts...   I'd go with aluminum and kapton tape...  oh that is a lot of power...

 

 

LOL!  I need Twenty-Five 1.5 ohm 1% 200 watt resistors, Twenty-Five 2.0 ohm 1% 200 watt resistors and Twenty-Five 3.5 ohm 1% 200 watt resistors for each of 2 load cells.  Hard to hand wind with 1% accuracy to fit the form factor and temperature requirements, been there done that, ain't doing it again!  Plus I'm already working 50 hour weeks and this is only one of 7 projects I already have going.

 

Nolan