CZ Extended Firing Pin

[Friedrich_der_Grosse]

Greetings once again! So because I'm too lazy to test it out myself, my set up so far with my Shadow 2 has been a 13lbs hammer spring, a reduced power firing pin, and an extended firing pin, and I've not had a single misfire with any ammo I've thrown at it including hard primers. What I'm curious about is if I can reliably ignite CCI primers or harder if I simply use the standard firing pin with the reduced power firing pin spring, and 13lbs mainspring. I ask because I've grown a little bit worried about drop safety when someone mentioned that someone died because someone dropped their CZ Shadow 2, with it firing and killing someone in a match. I really, really don't wanna get rid of it considering it's my favorite pistol of all time and the work I've put into Cajunizing it, so any advice or additional comments would help. 

[N7VY]

My suggestion is to find out who that “someone” is before you let it bother you. There’s always stories out there with little or zero actual data. These are good pistols with 10’s of thousands shooters using them daily. If there was a real problem it would be out there with specifics. Have fun and shoot straight. 

[GeneBray]

11/7/2020.  GENESEE CONSERVATION LEAGUE. Rochester. NY.  Dropped firearm discharged.  I believe it a Shadow, which does not have a firing pin block, according to one source.  Pistol missed holster when reholstering after "Make Ready".  An indoor range.  Pistol fell striking floor hammer first.  I is what I found searching.  Cannot vouch for how accurate except for gun that does not have FPBS, location, date, and one person killed.

[GeneBray]

3 hours ago, Friedrich_der_Grosse said:

Greetings once again! So because I'm too lazy to test it out myself, my set up so far with my Shadow 2 has been a 13lbs hammer spring, a reduced power firing pin, and an extended firing pin, and I've not had a single misfire with any ammo I've thrown at it including hard primers. What I'm curious about is if I can reliably ignite CCI primers or harder if I simply use the standard firing pin with the reduced power firing pin spring, and 13lbs mainspring. I ask because I've grown a little bit worried about drop safety when someone mentioned that someone died because someone dropped their CZ Shadow 2, with it firing and killing someone in a match. I really, really don't wanna get rid of it considering it's my favorite pistol of all time and the work I've put into Cajunizing it, so any advice or additional comments would help. 

I believe the Shadow and Shadow 2 do not have a FPBS.  Easy to check.  Look at bottom of slide to see if it is there.  On my 75 SP01 a 13 lb main spring fired everything with a stock firing pin and spring.  I would venture to say that with a cocked hammer, dropped pistol, if the sear disengages with the hammer the gun will go bang.  I do not know for certain, but that is what the pistol is designed to do: fire a round when hammer falls from full cock.  If on half-cock, I surmise, but not know, that it may go bang.  How often?  Don't know.  If hammer fully down and dropped, the pistol should not fire.  HOWEVER, if the pistol falls directly on hammer spur, all bets are off.  It may.  Don't know about affect of extended firing pin re the breach face to front of FP when at rest.  Reduce power FPS means less force/energy to move the FP forward or rearward.

 

I shot my 75 SP01 w/o FPBS until USPSA said it had to be installed.  So I did.  I had one dropped pistol in 22 years of USPSA competition, hooked gun on small port leaving a position dispite telling myself on walk through not to get too deep into port.  Nothing happened except pistol fell on ground and I DQed.  It was on dirt somewhere between hard pan and loose dirt w/pebbles.  

Edited August 3, 2022 by GeneBray

[motosapiens]

I don’t have the trigger finger strength to pull a 13 pound hammer spring, that is hard as f*#k. But I can tell you the 11 pound hammer spring and extended firing pin lights off CCI primers for me 100% of the time. if I use S&B primers I have to bump up to a 12 pound spring to get 100% ignition.

 

I suspect a 13 pound spring is sufficient to run reliably with the standard firing pin,  but my advice is to never throw your loaded gun onto concrete, At least not with the hammer down. it is entirely safe cocked and locked.

[YVK]

Those spring weights have liberal margins of error. A 14 lbs from CZC gives a lighter trigger pull than a 13 lbs from another vendor. I use that CZC spring with OEM firing pin/spring combination and it ignites everything. 

I removed the extended pins way before NYS accident and after one of those pins got stuck in its hole, protruding out of a breechface and rendering the gun inoperable.

[GeneBray]

14 hours ago, YVK said:

Those spring weights have liberal margins of error. A 14 lbs from CZC gives a lighter trigger pull than a 13 lbs from another vendor. I use that CZC spring with OEM firing pin/spring combination and it ignites everything. 

I removed the extended pins way before NYS accident and after one of those pins got stuck in its hole, protruding out of a breechface and rendering the gun inoperable.

That is one of the reasons, I have a spring tension guage....

 

[Currywurst]

On 8/3/2022 at 6:06 AM, GeneBray said:

11/7/2020.  GENESEE CONSERVATION LEAGUE. Rochester. NY.  Dropped firearm discharged.  I believe it a Shadow, which does not have a firing pin block, according to one source.  Pistol missed holster when reholstering after "Make Ready".  An indoor range.  Pistol fell striking floor hammer first.  I is what I found searching.  Cannot vouch for how accurate except for gun that does not have FPBS, location, date, and one person killed.

The only explanation for this accident I can think of is that the firing pin was longer than it's channel. Are extended firing pins really this long? This would completely defeat the inertia firing pin principle.

[Friedrich_der_Grosse]

After reading some of the replies, I've come to the conclusion that one isolated incident with little information is not worth getting rid of the happiness that my Shadow 2 with the extended firing pin, reduced power firing pin spring and 13lbs mainspring brings to me. For additional safety when I'm shooting since I don't even shoot competition yet (I don't know if I even have any that happen where I am because I'm dumb), I'll brandish my Shadow 2 cocked and locked since it appears that carrying on a hammer down isn't as wise as with the hammer not down. Thank you everyone for bringing me some reassurance and confidence, I'll definitely be asking more questions up here if that is okay. 

Also sorry my replies are so long! 

[slavex]

I do not run extended firing pins, but run 9lb hammer spring with the light firing pin spring and have zero issue with S&B, CCI, Federal and Ginex primers. 

[Stmark73]

I did an experiment of my own a few years back when I heard of the said accident.

 

Loaded my shadow2 with a primed case. Tapped the hammer with a rubber mallet. 

With extended firing pin and reduced power firing pin spring, it popped the primer.

With extended firing pin and regular firing pin spring, had to tap the hammer harder to pop the primer.

With stock firing pin and new stock spring, was not able to pop the primer.

 

But I still use the reduce power spring and extended firing pin.

Chances of pistol dropping on hammer is maybe 1 in a million.

 

thank you,

Mark Santos

 

 

[Tnbb33]

13lb hammer spring with factory firing pin and spring will light everything is my experience 

[GeneBray]

3 hours ago, Tnbb33 said:

13lb hammer spring with factory firing pin and spring will light everything is my experience 

It has for me as well. With possible exception of Tula and Wolfe. Had major issues with so don’t use their SP any more. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 8/3/2022 at 9:20 PM, motosapiens said:

I don’t have the trigger finger strength to pull a 13 pound hammer spring, that is hard as f*#k.

 

LOL

 

Seriously?

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

LOL

 

Seriously?

Of course. Everything I post here is 100% serious.

[Hansb57]

On 8/4/2022 at 6:51 PM, GeneBray said:

That is one of the reasons, I have a spring tension guage....

 

 

I whished I knew at what compressed size manufacturers rate hammer and recoil springs because I measured the s... out of them and never came close to any advertised pressure. If you're close to the lightest usable spring rate  changing springs based on manufacturers ratings is a risk. In the past I noticed the the 1911 users are more advanced on this subject.

[GeneBray]

MS weight in 1911 has little effect on trigger pull.  Never changed MSs in any of my 1911s unless due to age.  Its the sear spring which affects trigger pull on '11s.

[robertg5322]

On 8/13/2022 at 1:30 PM, motosapiens said:

Of course. Everything I post here is 100% serious.

Made me chuckle.

[crmcdm]

Know this thread is a little dated, but listen to the latest Paracast Podcast discusion on this topic, episode title "Shorter and Safer Ep 356".  Makes me not want to RO any junior gunsmith with a Shadow 2. 

 

Paracast.libsyn.com or via your favorite podcast platform. Or YouTube version: https://youtu.be/KkgApK8Pn-M

[crg]

Personally I'd prefer if DA/SA shooters could just start from the half cocked position (if the gun has one) rather than full decocked. This greatly reduces the risk of the gun going off if dropped and while decocking during make ready. I know the chances of the gun firing when dropped with an extended firing pin are small, but I keep the factory firing pin and spring in my shadows because the benefit of replacing them isn't worth the risk to me.

Edited December 6, 2022 by crg

[yigal]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:47 AM, Stmark73 said:

I did an experiment of my own a few years back when I heard of the said accident.

 

But I still use the reduce power spring and extended firing pin.

Chances of pistol dropping on hammer is maybe 1 in a million.

 

thank you,

Mark Santos

 

 

One in a million? Maybe. Have you heard of Murphy's Law?

[GeneBray]

4 hours ago, yigal said:

One in a million? Maybe. Have you heard of Murphy's Law?

Something doesn’t sound right. With the hammer cocked - half or full, the firing pin spring should push the rear of the firing pin slightly outside the rear of the slide so that when the hammer falls it strikes the

pin driving it forward. With the hammer lower, the rear of the firing pin should be flush with the face of the hammer and the hammer flush to the slide.  Since the parts are flush the hammer cannot impart movement of the firing pin. And the firing pin should not protrude though the breach face.  Any impact on the hammer should not impart movement of the firing pin since the pin is flush to the rear of the slide and hammer. 

[yigal]

7 hours ago, GeneBray said:

Something doesn’t sound right. With the hammer cocked - half or full, the firing pin spring should push the rear of the firing pin slightly outside the rear of the slide so that when the hammer falls it strikes the

pin driving it forward. With the hammer lower, the rear of the firing pin should be flush with the face of the hammer and the hammer flush to the slide.  Since the parts are flush the hammer cannot impart movement of the firing pin. And the firing pin should not protrude though the breach face.  Any impact on the hammer should not impart movement of the firing pin since the pin is flush to the rear of the slide and hammer. 

The original  fp (63mm) is not protrude. But the extended fp (64mm)  is longer than it by 1 mm and it does protrude from the surface when the hammer is lowered.

In the case of the gun falling on the hammer it is almost 100% that the gun will fire.

Edited December 7, 2022 by yigal

[robertwyatt]

On 12/6/2022 at 9:07 PM, yigal said:

The original  fp (63mm) is not protrude. But the extended fp (64mm)  is longer than it by 1 mm and it does protrude from the surface when the hammer is lowered.

In the case of the gun falling on the hammer it is almost 100% that the gun will fire.

I'd have to go look at mine at home but I think you're correct. You want the FP protruding from the back of the strike face just a bit, otherwise the hammer is just hitting the slide. Regardless, It's still going to have that newtons cradle effect when you strike the back of the hammer. I am going to do more tests with this, specifically using a stock firing pin and reduced power spring, and extended firing pin and stock spring. But as I tested it, that extended firing pin and reduced firing pin spring definitely go off even with an easy swing of a hammer.

[GeneBray]

My understanding is the firing pin has to protude from the rear of the slide some about for the hammer to strike the FP and drive it forward.  If the hammer only hits the rear of the slide there is no way to impart force/energy to the FP and drive it forward.  The amount of protrusion can be very small, but the hammer has to strike the FP to cause it to move.  This is physics 101.