2021 Locap Nats, what did you think?

[BritinUSA]

Anyone who claims this is not a problem its simply delusional, if it happens once it needs to be fixed. But this has been happening for years.

 

USPSA is not going to fix it.

 

What we need is a reliable plate mechanism that can activate targets. If the plate fails to fall its an automatic REF and reshoot.

[mreed911]

9 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/COsXa1tD8FH

This dude chronoed 133PF and all his rounds are way above PF floor, but he still had to shoot 3 times to knock down a popper. Do you suggest he used "underpowered ammo" too?

 

First hit is low and below the calibration zone.  Second hit is dead on in the zone. Third hit is a little higher and it falls.

 

No comment on the power factor... but the second hit would have been enough to call for calibration and the third hit makes it seem as though a calibration challenge would have failed.

 

Not sure the extra time for the third shot was worth picking up a mike on this stage - someone faster than me can do the math.  Since he engaged, it would have been just the mike, not a FTSA/procedural.

[ChuckS]

One more instance of name-calling and this thread will be closed. 

[Racinready300ex]

55 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

Is JJ chronoed to be sub minor then?  Aren't there rules to deal with failed chrono?  If JJ passed chrono, I don't see why he needs to be punished by unreliable mechanical poppers.  I'd rather chrono every single round he used on that stage, which will be much more closer to the truth than speculation. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/COsXa1tD8FH

This dude chronoed 133PF and all his rounds are way above PF floor, but he still had to shoot 3 times to knock down a popper. Do you suggest he used "underpowered ammo" too?

 

 

What stage is that?

[Chills1994]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

Anyone who claims this is not a problem its simply delusional, if it happens once it needs to be fixed. But this has been happening for years.

 

USPSA is not going to fix it.

 

What we need is a reliable plate mechanism that can activate targets. If the plate fails to fall its an automatic REF and reshoot.

Or go to stomp boxes?

 

When I was shooting IDPA, MD’s got creative with activating targets.  Usually it was upon opening a door.  At one major match electronics were used.... I want to say windshield wiper motors .  And at another IDPA match I could swear you walked down a hallway, and broke a light/laser beam which activated a moving target.

[cheby]

Please do not lock this thread.  This is why we need Brian Enos forum - to discuss real issues about the sport we are all passionate about. Talking about glock vs cz gets old quickly.

Edited May 14, 2021 by cheby

[ima45dv8]

4 minutes ago, cheby said:

Please do not lock this thread.  This is why we need Brian Enos forum - to discuss real issues about the sport we are all passionate about. Talking about glock vs cz gets old quickly.

Whether it gets closed is up to the people posting in it.

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

Or go to stomp boxes?

 

When I was shooting IDPA, MD’s got creative with activating targets.  Usually it was upon opening a door.  At one major match electronics were used.... I want to say windshield wiper motors .  And at another IDPA match I could swear you walked down a hallway, and broke a light/laser beam which activated a moving target.

 

Are you from the east? The MD state uses light switches, pressure pads and lasers to activate pneumatic movers. 

 

But the normal stomp boxes can be finicky, I designed a stage with one for our Area match and the MD and RM where both opposed to them due to reliability concerns.  

[Chills1994]

23 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Are you from the east? The MD state uses light switches, pressure pads and lasers to activate pneumatic movers. 

 

But the normal stomp boxes can be finicky, I designed a stage with one for our Area match and the MD and RM where both opposed to them due to reliability concerns.  

No, from the midwest.

 

I am sure you have seen those electromagnetic rectangles at the tops of doors.  You go to badge in or swipe in and the current going to the electromagnet is shut off momentarily so you can open the door.  I wonder how well something like that would work to hold the steel counterweight/pendulum of a swinger target in place???

[euxx]

On 5/14/2021 at 11:00 AM, Dazhi said:

Is JJ chronoed to be sub minor then?  Aren't there rules to deal with failed chrono?  If JJ passed chrono, I don't see why he needs to be punished by unreliable mechanical poppers. 

 

It could have been an issue with the popper, but I won't write off competitor's ammo either.

Think about it... His ammo passed chrono with the average of the best 3 rounds out of 5 shots trough chrono and 2 rounds out of 5 were under 125 PF. Now, expanding same ammo PFs to stage shooting - 40% of shots were under powered. It could be more than 40% or it could be less, we don't really know. But we know there were some and with bad luck one of those low power rounds went into the heavy large popper. Just like that.

 

So, knowing it's an edge PF ammo, competitor still took his chances at the major competition. It gave him some advantage in other places, but it also increased chances of popper not going down here... For a PRO competitor there is no one else to blame, it is all part of the game and he gambled on it.

 

[euxx]

On 5/14/2021 at 11:12 AM, mreed911 said:

Not sure the extra time for the third shot was worth picking up a mike on this stage - someone faster than me can do the math.  Since he engaged, it would have been just the mike, not a FTSA/procedural.

 

Hard to tell... With his time and HF the cost of Miss was 2.36 seconds. His match overall is 85.83% - 12th place.

 

2nd shot at the popper added .83 and 3rd shot - added .63 seconds. So, 1.46 together - that is still under that cost of Miss for his stage time.

 

Taking only 3rd shot off would bring stage time to 11.42, HF 6.8 and cost of Miss - 2.20. With no miss 86.09% in the match - 12 place overall. With taking a miss - stage HF: 5.5. Match overall 85.35% and 14th place.

 

Taking both of them off would make stage time 10.79 and stage HF 7.2. Cost of miss - 2.08 seconds. With no Miss - the match overall 86.31 - 12 place. With taking a Miss - stage HF: 5.8 and match overall 85.53% - 14th place.

 

All in all, he seems did the right decision to shoot the popper and whole incident likely haven't affected his overall standing.

[BritinUSA]

2 hours ago, euxx said:

Think about it... His ammo passed chrono with the average of the best 3 rounds out of 5 shots trough chrono and 2 rounds out of 5 were under 125 PF. Now, expanding same ammo PFs to stage shooting - 40% of shots were under powered.

 

His lowest velocity was within 1% of that required to make Minor. I sincerely hope that no-one here thinks these devices are that accurate, they are not.

 

What does the * next to the bullet weight imply, is it the weight specified by the competitor, or does it indicate that it was weighed at the range?
 

Every bullet that I’ve ever checked has been above the listed weight.

 

The velocity of his rounds in that specific stage are UNKNOWN. One can speculate that 2 of every 5 rounds was light, but you can’t prove it.

 

I still maintain that the root cause of these problems is the large popper.

 

 

[euxx]

36 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

What does the * next to the bullet weight imply, is it the weight specified by the competitor, or does it indicate that it was weighed at the range?

 

Just the weight used to calculate the average PF. No difference in this case, given that the only one weight entered at the chrono. The app makes no assumption or differentiates if weight was declared or bullet was weighted. You'd have to ask the chrono ROs or RM about the crono procedure.

Your blanked statement about manufacturer's bullet wights been above declared value has no real ground in general. It can be the case for some vendor, but not for the other. It depends on the bullet manufacturing process (e.g. cast vs swage and how coating or jacket is made).

 

37 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The velocity of his rounds in that specific stage are UNKNOWN. One can speculate that 2 of every 5 rounds was light, but you can’t prove it.

 

Yes and no. With information we see, one can reasonably estimate chance of some of competitor rounds being under a minor PF at about 40%. We don't have to prove a given round was light or not, but can say with some level or certainty that it could have been light.

 

 

[mreed911]

23 hours ago, euxx said:

All in all, he seems did the right decision to shoot the popper and whole incident likely haven't affected his overall standing.

 

Thanks for actually doing the math.  I now stand corrected - picking up the mike on steel did, in this case, make a positive difference vs. the time involved.

[motosapiens]

On 5/14/2021 at 9:08 AM, BritinUSA said:

Anyone who claims this is not a problem its simply delusional, if it happens once it needs to be fixed. But this has been happening for years.

 

USPSA is not going to fix it.

 

What we need is a reliable plate mechanism that can activate targets. If the plate fails to fall its an automatic REF and reshoot.

 

The system is working as intended, rewarding higher power ammo and better aim.

 

When I shoot minor (which i have done many times at nationals and area matches), i make sure to load well above the minimum, and I make sure to hit big poppers high, especially if I can see (or feel during reset) that the popper might be slightly heavier than normal due to wind or RO inattention.

[Racinready300ex]

I shot a major over the weekend. We watched the last shooter on the squad ahead of us shoot. He automatically double tapped the steel activator. 

 

Our first shooter did not, had to go back and hit it a second time to activate the two disappearing targets. Every other shooter on our squad shooting minor just doubled it to be safe after that. Worked out pretty good really. I wonder what the first shooter on the squad after us did. lol. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

43 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

Thanks for actually doing the math.  I now stand corrected - picking up the mike on steel did, in this case, make a positive difference vs. the time involved.

 

Most of the time it will, unless you've left the position and need to run back for it. 

[broadside72]

This was my first nationals and honestly I was unimpressed. I have been to Level 2s and a lot of locals that have had more interesting stages. Luckily I didn't run into the restroom issue. I am an average B shooter but MD/RM and help run my local club so i understand that side of things as well but this is supposed to be one of the premier events for the organization and it felt cheap.

 

Many stages were not fun for the major shooters. While legal they did ask a lot of those shooters where the 2 extra rounds were a big advantage to most shooters. Box to box stages are not fun but they do hammer you on planning and execution more than a course with a lot of movement. Things like popper order relative to the activator in the array to get best timing etc.

 

I will say that my screwing around at locals with SHO and WHO helped me a bit this match. While generally placing in the low 100's of the rankings for most stages I was in top 50 for the SHO/WHO stages, which really surprised me. Part of my performance issue was my trip there after mechanical issues, having driven 12 hours with one hour of sleep to arrive at the range at 8am, killed me day 1. Days 2 and 3 I just shot in my normal sucky manner. I do need to get back to exercising and shooting more matches after this crappy year. I've dropped my performance too much.

 

I didn't like that the matchbook changed so late the squadding matrix changed with it. Made the start pretty confusing since we couldn't get the new version to download at the range at that time due to a bad link in the email. We ended up starting at chrono with the new matrix and those guys were not on their game at all, it was the most awkward chrono stage i have ever been to.

 

The CMP range itself is really nice. Being from CA, all the green was amazing except for the allergies to the new pollens, etc. Weather was great too.

Stage staff was great for the most part. I'm not much for the theatrical score calling but whatever.  They were all in a good mood and working hard so props to them. Paper backup part way through was a bit strange but i understand the need arising. 

 

Live streaming I didn't watch any of, but i had people reacting to my knee high Lasso Gear compression socks they saw me wearing. That was strange  Live stream did catch my baller one handed on the move make up shot so that was cool

I bailed on the awards after waiting 2 hours for it to start, standing outside with no food or beverages. I was not winning anything I deserved anyway.

So I am torn about going to another nationals match. Maybe in a few years, I dunno

[RJH]

3 hours ago, broadside72 said:

 

 

 I'm not much for the theatrical score calling but whatever. 

 

What is this?  

 

[Bagellord]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

What is this?  

 

Have you ever witnessed Bruce wells RO a stage? It's a treat

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, Bagellord said:

Have you ever witnessed Bruce wells RO a stage? It's a treat

I have not

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Bagellord said:

Have you ever witnessed Bruce wells RO a stage? It's a treat

i shot with Bruce Wells in the staff match. He's a great guy, very positive and supportive and hard-working. He does get a little enthusiastic about calling 2-alpha, especially on the last target. I personally enjoyed it, and felt like It kind of encouraged and pepped everyone up on our squad. 

[C-Money]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

 

What is this?  

 

 

"Aaaand....  TWO ALPHA!!!!"

 

I started doing it, too. It makes me want to shoot better.

 

8 hours ago, broadside72 said:

Many stages were not fun for the major shooters. While legal they did ask a lot of those shooters where the 2 extra rounds were a big advantage to most shooters. Box to box stages are not fun but they do hammer you on planning and execution more than a course with a lot of movement. Things like popper order relative to the activator in the array to get best timing etc.

 

I thought the match heavily favored Minor/L10, which I think is what you are saying. The stages for the most part did a good job of playing off the Major with 8 rounds versus Minor with 10 but on the whole it felt like shooting 8 rounds was being punished. I get how it was due to it being a match for Production and L10 not just SStk &revo so it made sense. The stages weren't that awesome, though. Nothing worth remembering as a stand-out. They were pretty generic.

 

I go to a local match at the CMP and we shot some of the same stages again. That made me realize that without the excitement of Nationals the stages were rather bland. The short courses with movers were the most fun to shoot again. 

 

I hope the future Nationals have better stages.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Twinkie

[obsessiveshooter]

I just read through this whole thread, and it is disappointing.  We shoot because its fun and we love the competition.  But there is also a part of us that wants the things we pour our time and money into to have some significance.  When our sport's pinnacle match has overflowing portopotties, afterthought awards ceremonies, and runs out of food, that is an embarrasment. 

 

The Nationals experience ought to justify and reflect all the hard work and dedication of the shooters in attendance.  Visually, the stages ought to be obviously next-level, like the match videos I see from major IPSC matches.  Basically, it should look and feel like a Big Deal.

[BritinUSA]

Sponsorship for IPSC matches is in the form of cash, I think the majority of the sponsorship for Nationals is in the form of prizes for the competitors. 
 

A level IV or level V IPSC match is above and beyond any USPSA Nationals.

 

I think there is to much emphasis on the prize table, and not enough on the prestige of the match. It should be the biggest shooting event in the country… it isn’t, not by a long shot.