2021 Locap Nats, what did you think?

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

A repeatedly failing target, on the other hand, goes against competitive equity.

There's nothing to indicate to me that the target failed. Perhaps you mean a target that competitors repeatedly failed to knock down, that still went down with subminor chrono ammo.

[Reds_Dot]

I watched LoCap from home via live stream/IG posts/and Practiscore Updates and now, match videos.

As a spectator it was cool to have this level of interactivity with the event. It was cool to see people I know as well as all of the various Super Squads. I have one critique on the livestream: They should have moved stages every day. I think moving to the same zone as the Super Squads is a good call. You aren't just seeing the super squad folks shooting and you get stage variety. I don't know if that was a logistical thing or not. For the most part it was well done they did a decent job swapping cameras and stages. That isn't a an easy gig and there is a reason they pay sports TV directors the money that they do. 

I'm gonna excuse myself from the great "Popper Debate". I am far too inexperienced to contribute in a meaningful way to that discussion. The meme's have been hilarious though.

The Practiscore update thing was a bummer from a spectator standpoint. On the first day it was cool to see the stages results as the Super Squad folks shot them. I imagine it's similar to people who play fantasy sports stuff. Clearly I don't. I have the competitor app and it was fun to follow my favorite shooters and friends as they shot. Then the update thing happened and it became a bit janky, obviously.

I am shooting CO/PCC Nats in October so I will be sure to bring my own food and 140+ PF ammo.    

[RJH]

9 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

A repeatedly failing target, on the other hand, goes against competitive equity.

 

What about 40% sub minor ammo, is that against competitive equity? 

 

I mean if we are looking to revamp a rule how about that one.  

 

Maybe we go to more than a 10% failure at chrono you shoot for no score. 

 

There was competitive equity, if there was a call for calibration everyone got it, just like the rules say. The only way it wouldn't be equitable is if shooter A calls for calibration with a hit on target and the RM said no to him, but yes for someone else.  Is there any evidence that happened? 

[BritinUSA]

I think the only way to fix the popper issue is to design a cost-effective, light-weight falling plate target that can reliably activate a variety of targets.  
 

Quote

4.3.1.6 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges.

If a scoring metal plate has been hit but

fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified

 

Clubs will buy them as they are cheaper and easier to set up (lighter) and more reliable. The decades-old poppers that were designed for 175PF will become redundant.

 

HQ is not going to fix this issue so it may be up to the members to resolve it.

Edited May 13, 2021 by BritinUSA

[RJH]

There is no popper issue. There are people hitting them low in the calibration Zone with what could very well be sub minor ammo and then wondering why they don't fall though....

 

 

[Eric802]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

There is no popper issue. There are people hitting them low in the calibration Zone with what could very well be sub minor ammo and then wondering why they don't fall though....

 

 

Hitting them "low" in the calibration zone is irrelevant - the calibration zone is the calibration zone, so a hit in that zone should drop the popper.  Running ammo on the ragged edge of sub-minor is certainly a problem, though.

[Racinready300ex]

It is funny how on one hand there is not problem because the popper situation was handled by the rules. But on the other hand even though his ammo passed chrono per the same rules there is a ammo problem. 

 

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

Hitting them "low" in the calibration zone is irrelevant - the calibration zone is the calibration zone, so a hit in that zone should drop the popper.  Running ammo on the ragged edge of sub-minor is certainly a problem, though.

 

The "low in the calibration zone" was only mentioned because of the sub minor ammo. If you are shooting highly questionable ammo, better shoot them high lol

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

It is funny how on one hand there is not problem because the popper situation was handled by the rules. But on the other hand even though his ammo passed chrono per the same rules there is a ammo problem. 

 

 

I have no problem with either really, and only point out the ammo because people are saying he was popper screwed.  USPSA is freestyle everyone should get to shoot how they like within the rules. So if you load your ammo with 40% sub minor that is within the rules and fine. But if you then lose a calibration call because of it,  that is also within the rules and the chances you took. 

 

So don't say you were popper f*#ked,  say that you played on the edges and got burned and have no one to blame but your self. But,  America in 2021 so its gotta be someone else's fault 

[ChuckS]

OK, folks. Rowdy asked what people thought about the Locap Nationals. Let's get back to the topic and drop the never to be resolved arguments on PF, steel targets and how wrong everyone else is. PLEASE!

[Bagellord]

I can offer a small comment on the live stream stuff - this is a whole new ballgame for them and so there's a lot of learning and figuring out hardware/software. They plan to improve on it, but it's just going to take them some time.

[MikeyScuba]

What was wrong with the livestream last year (or was it 2019) at the various nats?  I remember they had a dedicated camera dude who followed the super squad around.  Didn't Nils take over filming at some point and did an adhoc interview of the guys on the squad?  It was memorable regardless.  This one was not.

[Eric802]

16 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

What was wrong with the livestream last year (or was it 2019) at the various nats?  I remember they had a dedicated camera dude who followed the super squad around.  Didn't Nils take over filming at some point and did an adhoc interview of the guys on the squad?  It was memorable regardless.  This one was not.

The only good thing about this one is that if you knew the schedule, you could catch the stream when people you wanted to see were at the streamed stages. I caught the people I know who were there on stage 3 - they happen to have been squadded with Rowdy, so I may have seen him too.  Whoever was switching cameras managed to switch from one of them on stage 4 right at "make ready" so they could show another stage pasting and resetting, so that kind of sucked. 

[BritinUSA]

Who is actually running the cameras/livestream, is it USPSA, separate company or individuals ?

[Fishbreath]

5 hours ago, BARRYJ said:

Somebody mentioned tossing the stage.  If the stage would have been tossed, who would have won?  

 

Results flipped: JJ over Nils (99.09%).

[C-Money]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

Who is actually running the cameras/livestream, is it USPSA, separate company or individuals ?

 

I saw the USPSA tech guy (whose name I cant recall) setting them up but as to who is changing feeds IDK.

 

Personally I like the idea of a feed of just one or a couple stages close together so if you know the schedule or want to see yourself later you can follow a specific shooter. I also like the Super Squads being covered. Maybe two feeds?

 

The real question is how much is this service worth to the membership? I personally would pay $0.00 for it but would be much more interested if I was competitive. It has potential, but is a "nice to have."

 

I'd rather the Porta John's be plentiful and well-appointed, the food to not run out at the award banquet, and the awards to be handled a bit better. The idea of seeing what exactly the prizes are before the walk would be cool, as I have no idea what the top peeps got.

[BritinUSA]

29 minutes ago, Twinkie said:

I saw the USPSA tech guy (whose name I cant recall) setting them up but as to who is changing feeds IDK.

 

Personally I like the idea of a feed of just one or a couple stages close together so if you know the schedule or want to see yourself later you can follow a specific shooter. I also like the Super Squads being covered. Maybe two feeds?

 

The real question is how much is this service worth to the membership? I personally would pay $0.00 for it but would be much more interested if I was competitive. It has potential, but is a "nice to have."

Thanks, the whole schedule feed thing could be done using the process I outline in the other thread, a camera to follow each SuperSquad, maybe another floating around, and perhaps another on the ‘best’ stage of the match that they could keep flipping to between the other feeds.

I think the ‘value’ is dependent on the viewer; Family members/friends of competitors might enjoy seeing how their loved ones are doing, and vendors could take advantage of the advertising that such an endeavor could provide.
 

Those banners that they have at Nationals are only seen by the attendees, but if the video feed was getting a lot of viewers then it may increase their Return on Investment.

 

Putting up a feed with a URL to the companies web-site with special offers that are only available while their sponsored stage is showing might generate some revenue…

 

It can also be seen as a service to the members.

 

There is a better way to do what they are trying to do, and it can be done with existing tech, it’s not rocket science. 
 

Like the magazine, its interesting to some but the delivery method needs to change.

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I have no problem with either really, and only point out the ammo because people are saying he was popper screwed.  USPSA is freestyle everyone should get to shoot how they like within the rules. So if you load your ammo with 40% sub minor that is within the rules and fine. But if you then lose a calibration call because of it,  that is also within the rules and the chances you took. 

 

So don't say you were popper f*#ked,  say that you played on the edges and got burned and have no one to blame but your self. But,  America in 2021 so its gotta be someone else's fault 

^^ like

 

there is no popper problem, and thats why hq wont fix it. the system worked as designed. people who chose to shoot hotter ammo (or aim higher) were less likely to have a problem with a big popper on a windy day.

[motosapiens]

On 5/11/2021 at 6:39 PM, Bakerjd said:

 

 

Another thing I want to add was I thought the practice bay being closed until the same time as the first shots at your stage was a little odd. For me it's not a huge deal as I almost never use it but I did here some people say it was less then ideal. 

 

the function fire bay? it was less than ideal but the 9:00 thing is based on a state law that immunizes the range from noise/nuisance lawsuits, so the range is not willing to give up that protection. i generally show up with a gun that functions tho.

[motosapiens]

i don’t know anything about the inner workings of the match, but it seems plausible to me that at least some issues people have mentioned like the awards banquet not being fancy enough could be related to the covid situation, or the move to a new range. the same guys ran the 2019 and 2020 nationals, which iheard less whining about. fwiw, i VASTLY prefer a less formal and quicker awards ceremony at the range than a drive to somewhere else. i will admit the food was better and the prize table more organized at frostproof last fall.

 

ill keep going to nationals because the best competition in the country is there.

[C-Money]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i don’t know anything about the inner workings of the match, but it seems plausible to me that at least some issues people have mentioned like the awards banquet not being fancy enough could be related to the covid situation, or the move to a new range. the same guys ran the 2019 and 2020 nationals, which iheard less whining about. fwiw, i VASTLY prefer a less formal and quicker awards ceremony at the range than a drive to somewhere else. i will admit the food was better and the prize table more organized at frostproof last fall.

 

ill keep going to nationals because the best competition in the country is there.

 

I dont know, bit having been to the SS/L10+Revo nats last year at CMP it seems to me they might have got the exact same amount of Porta John's and the same amount of food as last year. It wasn't enough for the full match attendees but was fine for the more sparsely attended Coof-Nationals.

[Dazhi]

22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

we don't toss stages for things that happen entirely within the rules just because someone used underpowered ammo and is sad about it.

How do you know "someone used underpowered ammo"? Unless you chrono the rounds hitting those big poppers at real time, all you were saying is just pure speculation. 

[Dazhi]

22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

There's nothing to indicate to me that the target failed. Perhaps you mean a target that competitors repeatedly failed to knock down, that still went down with subminor chrono ammo.

We can all see competitor chrono results, but where can we see the calibration "subminor ammo" chrono result?

[motosapiens]

16 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

How do you know "someone used underpowered ammo"? Unless you chrono the rounds hitting those big poppers at real time, all you were saying is just pure speculation. 

nope. JJ's chrono results show that 40% of what he shot at chrono was sub-minor. It seems very unlikely to be a coincidence that he had a problem with a popper when his closest competitors shooting 7-10pf higher did not have a problem. They decided to not take chances.

 

15 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

We can all see competitor chrono results, but where can we see the calibration "subminor ammo" chrono result?

good question. I know the zone 1 RM was called to chrono again during the match during some kind of discussion. Perhaps if you email them with the suggestion they will make the RM chrono results public. I think that would be a good idea.

[Dazhi]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

nope. JJ's chrono results show that 40% of what he shot at chrono was sub-minor. It seems very unlikely to be a coincidence that he had a problem with a popper when his closest competitors shooting 7-10pf higher did not have a problem. They decided to not take chances.

 

good question. I know the zone 1 RM was called to chrono again during the match during some kind of discussion. Perhaps if you email them with the suggestion they will make the RM chrono results public. I think that would be a good idea.

 

Is JJ chronoed to be sub minor then?  Aren't there rules to deal with failed chrono?  If JJ passed chrono, I don't see why he needs to be punished by unreliable mechanical poppers.  I'd rather chrono every single round he used on that stage, which will be much more closer to the truth than speculation. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/COsXa1tD8FH

This dude chronoed 133PF and all his rounds are way above PF floor, but he still had to shoot 3 times to knock down a popper. Do you suggest he used "underpowered ammo" too?