I wish Production wasn't dying

[twodownzero]

3 hours ago, robchavous said:

 

Will + or - ~2 rounds really make the difference?  Various CO guns hold between 22-24.  Doesn't really seem to be the deciding factor in gun choice.

 

It would make a huge difference.  15+1 wouldn't.  19 would turn Production into Limited Minor.  19 in a magazine is enough that any stage could be completed, comfortably, with a single reload.

 

22-24 doesn't make much of a difference, but the difference between 15 and 19 is huge.

 

I'm willing to bet that we will see more interest in Production in the future.  It's just not the flavor of the month right now.  I'm not so confident we'll ever see the same in Single Stack.  And if I'm wrong about that, the locap divisons may just all go the way of the dodo bird and I'll be back to shooting Limited.

 

  

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

who cares? it makes sense for revolver and ss to be lo-cap. it doesn't really make good sense to me to create an artificial lo-cap division.

 

So why have an artificial minor power factor division then?  And if you're against those, why have Production at all?  What else is left, prohibiting grip reductions?

 

Production was supposed to be a place for service-type pistols and revolvers to play with basic holsters, holster placement, etc.  It's strayed from that, and it seems that you want to turn it into limited minor, but why?  Because the 59 ounce guns rendered the few remaining restrictions pointless?

Edited October 5, 2021 by twodownzero

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

Production was supposed to be a place for service-type pistols and revolvers to play with basic holsters, holster placement, etc.

still seems that way to me, only now you can tweak your gun a bit to make it work better for you. The guns are mass produced and either identical to or totally based on common duty/carry guns.

[Racinready300ex]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

still seems that way to me, only now you can tweak your gun a bit to make it work better for you. The guns are mass produced and either identical to or totally based on common duty/carry guns.

 

Kinda I guess. I know we see this differently. But for example taking a CZ, and replacing the trigger, sear, hammer, firing pin, all the springs, mag release, thumb rest, mill the slide, brass grips, brass flashlight, polish all the internals so all you're left with that's as it was from CZ is the frame. To you is tweaking, to me is a little more than just tweaking. 

 

And sure you don't have to do all that stuff, but all that stuff is allowed to be done in production and CO and are the minor tweaks we're talking about. I think the name Production might be a little miss leading at this point. It doesn't really matter now, it's done and never being rolled back so no need to worry about it.

[rowdyb]

If there were a major change, that would require a large number of people to change their equipment how long do you think is reasonable to allow them time to make the change?

 

If the major change was announced in say November would you want 6 months or a year or what to end up being in compliance?

[broadside72]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Kinda I guess. I know we see this differently. But for example taking a CZ, and replacing the trigger, sear, hammer, firing pin, all the springs, mag release, thumb rest, mill the slide, brass grips, brass flashlight, polish all the internals so all you're left with that's as it was from CZ is the frame. To you is tweaking, to me is a little more than just tweaking. 

 

And sure you don't have to do all that stuff, but all that stuff is allowed to be done in production and CO and are the minor tweaks we're talking about. I think the name Production might be a little miss leading at this point. It doesn't really matter now, it's done and never being rolled back so no need to worry about it.

 

Not any different than stock car racing in its labeling.

It's essentially impossible to check all the internals in the guns on the production list, so I can see why the rules have been relaxed over time. 

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

Not any different than stock car racing in its labeling.

It's essentially impossible to check all the internals in the guns on the production list, so I can see why the rules have been relaxed over time. 

 

But we relaxed them to the point of allowing basically anything because what we couldn't see the springs and the sear?  Most of the crap we can do now is easy to spot. Seems like we kind of jumped the shark.

[twodownzero]

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

But we relaxed them to the point of allowing basically anything because what we couldn't see the springs and the sear?  Most of the crap we can do now is easy to spot. Seems like we kind of jumped the shark.

 

Exactly.  We used to have some pretty simple rules, if it was visible on the outside of the gun besides sights, prohibited.  If not explicitly allowed, prohibited.  Now I'm not even sure exactly what the rule is anymore.  Now we have a division that'd bump me to open for putting a 9mm conversion barrel in a Glock 35 but adding a flashlight with tungsten batteries and carrying it appendix is legal.  Where does this madness end?  I think the Production horse might already be out of the barn.

 

By the way, we tried to get rid of the trigger arms race with a trigger pull restriction and even that caused whining.

Edited October 5, 2021 by twodownzero

[konkapot]

14 pages of this, and who knows how many on "Limited Minor." Same people typing at each other in the same way as always. 

 

What I've never seen with USPSA is the BoD asking the members what they want. A poll from USPSA. You'd have to phrase your questions and multiple choice options carefully. You'd have to decide who would be allowed to vote on the division in question. 

 

I've only been shooting since 2000, I've lived in Areas 1, 2, 6 and 8 and have never once been asked by anyone in USPSA what my opinion was. 

 

As this forum slowly withers away, I (again) wish that USPSA had a legit forum. Somewhere between this forum and Doodie on the civility spectrum. 

[broadside72]

27 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

Now I'm not even sure exactly what the rule is anymore. 

Basically if the frame is on the list, it fits in the box, makes weight, no comp, no optics, no barrel porting, no magwell, no light or a working light, then its good to go.  Seems rather easy to manage now

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

But we relaxed them to the point of allowing basically anything because what we couldn't see the springs and the sear?  Most of the crap we can do now is easy to spot. Seems like we kind of jumped the shark.

the thing is, none of those parts make that much of a difference. shooters like to tweak stuff, and maybe they make something fit a little bit better, or work a little better for their personal preferences, but it's not really a game-changing thing.... and even if it were, once CZ and tanfo rigged the game by offering custom-shop 'production' guns, why should we hold the plastic gun owners back. Why should we penalize the people with smaller hands that can mitigate their disadvantage with an extended mag release.

 

The overwhelming majority of prod and CO shooters are shooting very mildly tweaked guns, and the few that have gone full retard on mods aren't doing any better in matches than they were before the rule change. It also seems that the overwhelming majority of CO shooters (we don't have prod shooters in idaho, lol) like the more relaxed rules.  My guns would still be legal under the old rules, and I don't feel disadvantaged at all because someone else can change some part on their gun.

[twodownzero]

3 hours ago, broadside72 said:

Basically if the frame is on the list, it fits in the box, makes weight, no comp, no optics, no barrel porting, no magwell, no light or a working light, then its good to go.  Seems rather easy to manage now

 

Doesn't have to  make weight anymore with the light.  And frame on the list isn't enough--a Glock 22 with a 9mm barrel is still not Production legal.  You must think what Production is.....is what it used to be before the rule changes.

[twodownzero]

3 hours ago, konkapot said:

14 pages of this, and who knows how many on "Limited Minor." Same people typing at each other in the same way as always. 

 

What I've never seen with USPSA is the BoD asking the members what they want. A poll from USPSA. You'd have to phrase your questions and multiple choice options carefully. You'd have to decide who would be allowed to vote on the division in question. 

 

I've only been shooting since 2000, I've lived in Areas 1, 2, 6 and 8 and have never once been asked by anyone in USPSA what my opinion was. 

 

As this forum slowly withers away, I (again) wish that USPSA had a legit forum. Somewhere between this forum and Doodie on the civility spectrum. 

 

We get to vote.   And if recent politics are any indication, the members are angry and things will change. 

 

USPSA is a republic and not a democracy.  The people we elect represent us.  It's our organization.

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

Doesn't have to  make weight anymore with the light.  And frame on the list isn't enough--a Glock 22 with a 9mm barrel is still not Production legal.  You must think what Production is.....is what it used to be before the rule changes.

 

Pretty sure you can put a 9 barrel in you Glock 22 and be legal now

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

We get to vote.   And if recent politics are any indication, the members are angry and things will change. 

 

USPSA is a republic and not a democracy.  The people we elect represent us.  It's our organization.

I shoot (and help run) a match almost every week, and I work big matches throughout the year. The only angry people I know are the same old malcontents that post here all the time. At local matches, at area matches, and at nationals, most people seem pretty happy with the sport (but not happy with the porta-potties, lol).

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, motosapiens said:

the thing is, none of those parts make that much of a difference. shooters like to tweak stuff, and maybe they make something fit a little bit better, or work a little better for their personal preferences, but it's not really a game-changing thing.... and even if it were, once CZ and tanfo rigged the game by offering custom-shop 'production' guns, why should we hold the plastic gun owners back. Why should we penalize the people with smaller hands that can mitigate their disadvantage with an extended mag release.

 

The overwhelming majority of prod and CO shooters are shooting very mildly tweaked guns, and the few that have gone full retard on mods aren't doing any better in matches than they were before the rule change. It also seems that the overwhelming majority of CO shooters (we don't have prod shooters in idaho, lol) like the more relaxed rules.  My guns would still be legal under the old rules, and I don't feel disadvantaged at all because someone else can change some part on their gun.

 

Like I said we disagree on what small tweaks are. I do think a CZ or Tanfo fully tricked out is way more common than you seem to think, and they're vary far from the "duty/carry guns" description in the post I quoted. Most of the guys I shoot with will take any advantage they can get no matter how small. Many of these guys are M and G, so not just a bunch of C class scrubs. 

 

For me it comes down to I think the current equipment rules are dumb so I don't want to shoot those divisions. 

[Sinister4]

33 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Like I said we disagree on what small tweaks are. I do think a CZ or Tanfo fully tricked out is way more common than you seem to think, and they're vary far from the "duty/carry guns" description in the post I quoted. Most of the guys I shoot with will take any advantage they can get no matter how small. Many of these guys are M and G, so not just a bunch of C class scrubs. 

 

For me it comes down to I think the current equipment rules are dumb so I don't want to shoot those divisions. 

Agreed,  I'll shoot and have fun no matter what the rules are, but having seen the exact same things as far as "tweeks" go in racing for decades I just move to a division I like and go from there. It's always very  hard to keep a "stock" division where it is without hard tech rules that are enforced.  Factory "specials" always abound lol 

[Jim Watson]

If there was still a definition of Production that was somewhat close to stock, you could do like a horse race; close scrutiny of the winners.  Who cares what Joe Schmuck felt like he had to do for 7th place?

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Like I said we disagree on what small tweaks are. I do think a CZ or Tanfo fully tricked out is way more common than you seem to think, and they're vary far from the "duty/carry guns" description in the post I quoted. Most of the guys I shoot with will take any advantage they can get no matter how small. Many of these guys are M and G, so not just a bunch of C class scrubs. 

 

For me it comes down to I think the current equipment rules are dumb so I don't want to shoot those divisions. 

sure. M and GM shooters are serious, and most people who like guns like to tweak their guns a bit. I observed the same thing racing motorcycles and bicycles. People like to mess with stuff and try different things. I personally ended up getting away from all the aftermarket crap and just riding reliable bikes, but it doesn't bother me if other people like tinkering.

 

I think people are abandoning production because everyone just wants to shoot CO now. It remains to be seen how many of them will decide it's hard and go back to the small production pond.

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

People like to mess with stuff and try different things. 

I agree, but even under the old rules you could still tinker with your production gun, or do something crazy like shoot any other division where you could add lots of upgrades to your gun. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we can or should roll the rules back. They are what they are now. I just think what they are is dumb. That goes for CO and Prod.

 

1 hour ago, Jim Watson said:

If there was still a definition of Production that was somewhat close to stock, you could do like a horse race; close scrutiny of the winners.  Who cares what Joe Schmuck felt like he had to do for 7th place?

 

It's really not that hard to police, and worked for a long time. IDPA still does it, and I think IPSC does too. 

[twodownzero]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I shoot (and help run) a match almost every week, and I work big matches throughout the year. The only angry people I know are the same old malcontents that post here all the time. At local matches, at area matches, and at nationals, most people seem pretty happy with the sport (but not happy with the porta-potties, lol).

 

I'm really trying to stay away from politics because I've been here for a long time and I know Brian doesn't like politics, even USPSA politics on this forum, but you do realize that the USPSA President was just removed from office, right?  There is likely more to come as well.  I don't follow it that closely, but I've been a member for a long time and nothing like this has ever happened that I recall.

 

Certainly not everyone agrees with me about what the actual problems are with USPSA, but it has macro-level problems that are going to be solved through our representatives in whatever way the membership desires.

 

If I have any say, I'm going to do what I can to save the Production division from the rule changes, both completed and contemplated, that will create an arms race and turn it into, as people have said above, "limited minor."  I like Limited and it's the only high capacity division I shoot.  But when I shoot Production, there are things in my head I associate with that, and some of the recent rule changes and some of the proposed ones in this thread seek to take those things away, which I couldn't be more opposed to.

[Jim Watson]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It's really not that hard to police, and worked for a long time. IDPA still does it, and I think IPSC does too. 

 

I have watched state and national match IDPA inspections by Box, scale, and eyeball.  That level of qualification is easy.  How much further could it go?

 

 

Kicking stuff around on the internet is one game, shooting matches is another, and I don't have any trouble keeping them separate in my mind.

 

Right now I am shooting mostly L10 (.45 2011) because that is what suits my ammo and component supplies.  Give me back pre panicdemic component availability and I would be straight back to Limited.  

[BiknSwans]

17 hours ago, twodownzero said:

 

Doesn't have to  make weight anymore with the light.  And frame on the list isn't enough--a Glock 22 with a 9mm barrel is still not Production legal.  You must think what Production is.....is what it used to be before the rule changes.

 

Not the way I read the rules.  Weight requirement is still on the books, and aftermarket barrels do not have to be the same caliber as the original firearm.

 

 

Appendix D4 - Production Division

 

D4.18 Maximum weight

   Yes. 59 ounces with empty magazine inserted. 

 

D4.21.3 Aftermarket slides and barrels

   SLIDES: You may replace the slide with an OFM or aftermarket slide.

   
BARRELS: You may replace the barrel with an OFM or aftermarket barrel. 

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

I have watched state and national match IDPA inspections by Box, scale, and eyeball.  That level of qualification is easy.  How much further could it go?

 

 

Kicking stuff around on the internet is one game, shooting matches is another, and I don't have any trouble keeping them separate in my mind.

 

Right now I am shooting mostly L10 (.45 2011) because that is what suits my ammo and component supplies.  Give me back pre panicdemic component availability and I would be straight back to Limited.  

That's really all that's needed. But also consider if you're walking around with it on your hip and there are 50+ staff at the match what are the odds just one of them shoots the same gun as you and notices you have something illegal. What are the odds that someone on your squad is in your divisions and notices what you're using. It's virtually self policing problem, that you wont get away with forever. But to fix the problem that didn't exist we made everything legal.

 

I think the idea the rules were impossible to enforce was just the excuse they used to do what  Mike wanted with the divisions. 

[Jeff226]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

That's really all that's needed. But also consider if you're walking around with it on your hip and there are 50+ staff at the match what are the odds just one of them shoots the same gun as you and notices you have something illegal. What are the odds that someone on your squad is in your divisions and notices what you're using. It's virtually self policing problem, that you wont get away with forever. But to fix the problem that didn't exist we made everything legal.

 

I think the idea the rules were impossible to enforce was just the excuse they used to do what  Mike wanted with the divisions. 

What is the benefit of having all of those rules and requiring all of that policing?  To maintain the illusion that shooting a stock Glock vs a Stock M&P has some value?

[Jeff226]

23 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Kinda I guess. I know we see this differently. But for example taking a CZ, and replacing the trigger, sear, hammer, firing pin, all the springs, mag release, thumb rest, mill the slide, brass grips, brass flashlight, polish all the internals so all you're left with that's as it was from CZ is the frame. To you is tweaking, to me is a little more than just tweaking. 

 

I think your interpretation is much more accurate/honest.

 

I haven't been to Idaho but in my area, triggers/fire control, springs, grips/texturing, sights, are minimum and slides/barrels are very common.  Virtually nobody with a classification in the divisions are shooting "mildly tweaked" or out of box guns.