X5 Legion accuracy

[limitedgun]

Surely somebody has tried an aftermarket barrel in a X5 that they could report on. You may be chasing a cure that does not exist if you are having this much trouble. My be time to apply Occam's razor to this one.

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I agree, and for the most part I think they are in regards to shooting sport like USPSA.  Do you think as a shooting platform that plastic guns perform as well as a CZ and/or 2011?

 

 

 

I haven't shot enough plastic guns to say. I can say my Legion is not as accurate as any of my Limited or SS guns. It frustrates me a bit because at the 20-25 yard line I just can't get it to shoot the groups I'm used to and that leaves me less confident in it. I don't know if it's the gun or if I just can't shoot strikers, but next season I will be shooting a CZ. 

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I haven't shot enough plastic guns to say. I can say my Legion is not as accurate as any of my Limited or SS guns. It frustrates me a bit because at the 20-25 yard line I just can't get it to shoot the groups I'm used to and that leaves me less confident in it. I don't know if it's the gun or if I just can't shoot strikers, but next season I will be shooting a CZ. 

 

I have not fired any 2011 or a CZ.  Due to tolerances of the various guns and reports from others it would seem they are notably more accurate.  It makes sense as well just to how the guns are built.  I have noted now that I have dialed in my ammo and have better accuracy with my Legion and the ammo that I miss steel at intermediate and longer distances a lot less.  If the weight limits had been different when I started shooting carry optics I might be shooting CZs in CO instead of Sigs.  Too much invested in Sig to change for the next season or two.  I do believe I will be on a steel platform a year or two from now.  They intrigue me.   

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I have not fired any 2011 or a CZ.  Due to tolerances of the various guns and reports from others it would seem they are notably more accurate.  It makes sense as well just to how the guns are built.  I have noted now that I have dialed in my ammo and have better accuracy with my Legion and the ammo that I miss steel at intermediate and longer distances a lot less.  If the weight limits had been different when I started shooting carry optics I might be shooting CZs in CO instead of Sigs.  Too much invested in Sig to change for the next season or two.  I do believe I will be on a steel platform a year or two from now.  They intrigue me.   

 

I see a few posts similar to yours of getting the load just right and the gun shoots better. Honestly that's more trouble then I want to mess with anymore. I want to go to the range and train. Time spent testing bullet weights, profiles and powders is time and money not spent getting better at shooting. My 1911's I could shoot 165's, 180, 200's what ever they all ran they all grouped well. I could just load up thousands of rounds of what ever and shoot with out much thought. 

 

I was pretty invested in my Sigs too. But I decided if I'm going to do it I should do it right. I just sold a FCU on gunbroker for $550 and some misc parts I had laying around for another 500. That gave me a grand to pick up a used S2. Buy the time I sell my legion and spare top end and other odds and ends I'll end up with way more then I'll have in the S2. The s2 fits my hand better and feels more like what I'm used to. I think in a few weeks of dry fire it'll be like I've always been shooting them.

[Boomstick303]

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Honestly that's more trouble then I want to mess with anymore.

 

I can understand this completely.

 

For me being relatively new I need to do this with any gun I want to shoot in this sport to some extent or another if I am going to be serious about competing.  Like any hobby that is a competition, one needs to get their equipment dialed in before they should be training.  How many people who first by a CZ know that CZs seem to require a pretty short OAL to operate correctly?  It comes down to you don't know what you don't know.  At least there are resources like this forum to help speed that process up.   While I agree I would just rather shoot and not have to "dial" ammo in.  I also understand to maximize my performance it is a necessary evil.  Mix in crap like COVID and/or elections that create shortages of ammo and components unfortunately you don't always have the ammo you want to use.  That is the reason I wanted to reload initially was to have consistent ammo.  Even when ammo was plentiful at a reasonable price, I could never find the same ammo on a consistent basis.  Now I find myself in the same boat with components.  I have been shooting three different bullet weights in the last six months.  Partially because I am still tinkering with what final ammo I intend to use moving forward with Legions and partially due to lack of bullets, and buying what I can find.  I now have the ability to load accurate ammo using three different bullets weights.  Hopefully things will calm down so I can finally have enough stock to shoot just one bullet type.    

 

I do look forward to shooting metal frame guns one day, but there would also be some load experimentation with any platform I shoot.  Thank god for boards like this that make that process much easier and quicker.  

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I can understand this completely.

 

For me being relatively new I need to do this with any gun I want to shoot in this sport to some extent or another if I am going to be serious about competing.  Like any hobby that is a competition, one needs to get their equipment dialed in before they should be training.  How many people who first by a CZ know that CZs seem to require a pretty short OAL to operate correctly?  It comes down to you don't know what you don't know.  At least there are resources like this forum to help speed that process up.   While I agree I would just rather shoot and not have to "dial" ammo in.  I also understand to maximize my performance it is a necessary evil.  Mix in crap like COVID and/or elections that create shortages of ammo and components unfortunately you don't always have the ammo you want to use.  That is the reason I wanted to reload initially was to have consistent ammo.  Even when ammo was plentiful at a reasonable price, I could never find the same ammo on a consistent basis.  Now I find myself in the same boat with components.  I have been shooting three different bullet weights in the last six months.  Partially because I am still tinkering with what final ammo I intend to use moving forward with Legions and partially due to lack of bullets, and buying what I can find.  I now have the ability to load accurate ammo using three different bullets weights.  Hopefully things will calm down so I can finally have enough stock to shoot just one bullet type.    

 

I do look forward to shooting metal frame guns one day, but there would also be some load experimentation with any platform I shoot.  Thank god for boards like this that make that process much easier and quicker.  

 

 

 

My load experimentation generally consists of pick a bullet find the OAL that plunks research how much powder to make PF. Test...make PF and load up a bunch and start shooting. I have a half dozen 1911's or 2011's that this has yielded good results in with multiple bullet weights and even major and minor. If a gun is picky I don't want it.

 

I know guys that have tested 115, 125, 135, 147, 160 gr. then test powders, then play with recoil springs etc. Before long they are telling me how soft and flat it is. They end up spending several months working on this, mean while I've been going to the range and training the whole time. I wish when I was new someone told me not to mess with stuff so much and just practice, if I had listened I'd be a better shooter today.

[punisher911]

23 hours ago, cheby said:

It appears that the accuracy varies between identical X5s. Perhaps due to some quality control issues.

Definitely seems to be the case. The others I have competed against here in SE Michigan all swear one ragged hole accuracy at 7 yds. I seem to be the unlucky one here. On the forums and more widespread though, there are plenty others like me. Maybe just a simple crown recut would do it? Who knows. 

[Colorado_CJ]

My Legion felt less than accurate with the stock trigger.  

After installing the GG competition kit (with the heavier return spring) and Amory Craft trigger, my groups have been one ragged hole at 7 yards fast firing. 

The spongy feeling stock trigger was the culprit, for me at least, leading to bad groups, not the gun itself.

 

[Blaize]

Just to share my experiences, I have two early original X5’s. They both shoot my 145gr titegroup load, my 120gr titegroup load lights out. Like 1-2 inch accuracy at 25 yards. Finally got around to buying a legion, it was an April 2020 manufacture date. I couldn’t get it to shoot better than 3-4 inches at 10 yards. 
 

I swapped the legion top end on my original X5 grip and FCU, same deal. 
 

the barre lockup was very very noticeably worse. Sig has most certainly changed that in the newer designed barrels, in my opinion it was due to so many people complaining about the “pre tension” in the originals, where if you just rode the slide home instead of letting the recoil spring do it’s job, it would hang out if battery by about an 1/8 inch or so.

 

i was extremely disappointed and sold my legion, but my original X5s continue to amaze myself and fellow shooters with their accuracy and performance 

[AZ123456]

I'm currently having a Barsto barrel fitted to my backup Legion for similar accuracy issues. I'll report back as soon as I get it back and test it. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by AZ123456
Spelling

[Rich406]

32 minutes ago, AZ123456 said:

I'm currently having a Barsto barrel fitted to my backup Legion for similar accuracy issues. I'll report back as soon as I get it back and test it. 

Barsto barrel doesn’t make any difference. 

[Cavy]

19 hours ago, Blaize said:

Just to share my experiences, I have two early original X5’s. They both shoot my 145gr titegroup load, my 120gr titegroup load lights out. Like 1-2 inch accuracy at 25 yards. Finally got around to buying a legion, it was an April 2020 manufacture date. I couldn’t get it to shoot better than 3-4 inches at 10 yards. 
 

I swapped the legion top end on my original X5 grip and FCU, same deal. 
 

the barre lockup was very very noticeably worse. Sig has most certainly changed that in the newer designed barrels, in my opinion it was due to so many people complaining about the “pre tension” in the originals, where if you just rode the slide home instead of letting the recoil spring do it’s job, it would hang out if battery by about an 1/8 inch or so.

 

Could someone please explain "pre tension"  I am not sure what it is or what SIG may have changed?

[AZ123456]

18 hours ago, Rich406 said:

Barsto barrel doesn’t make any difference. 

This would not surprise me but I'm trying one last option before I switch platforms. 

 

[Blaize]

43 minutes ago, Cavy said:

 

Could someone please explain "pre tension"  I am not sure what it is or what SIG may have changed?

Its what sig refers to as the tension when the slide goes into battery. The originals you had to let the recoil spring do all the work from slide lock, in order to go all the way into battery and lock up, it was so tight, which is good.

 

i have found on the legions, the barrel unlocks easily and does not hang up out of battery if the full force of the recoil spring isn’t used.

[Cavy]

3 hours ago, Blaize said:

Its what sig refers to as the tension when the slide goes into battery. The originals you had to let the recoil spring do all the work from slide lock, in order to go all the way into battery and lock up, it was so tight, which is good.

 

i have found on the legions, the barrel unlocks easily and does not hang up out of battery if the full force of the recoil spring isn’t used.

Would the fact that the Legion has a weaker firing pin spring account for the difference?

[Rich406]

51 minutes ago, Cavy said:

Would the fact that the Legion has a weaker firing pin spring account for the difference?

i dont think the firing pin spring would effect the lockup

[Rich406]

7 hours ago, AZ123456 said:

This would not surprise me but I'm trying one last option before I switch platforms. 

 

The legion can be accurate, but you have to work towards it with your load.... 

 

I think it’s telling that Max Michel uses a older X5 upper on a legion lower as his match gun.....

[AZ123456]

8 hours ago, Rich406 said:

The legion can be accurate, but you have to work towards it with your load.... 

 

I think it’s telling that Max Michel uses a older X5 upper on a legion lower as his match gun.....

I've switched from 147 grain .355 blue bullets to 125 grain .356. Running these at 135ish PF seemed to help considerably but I still find myself struggling with consistent accuracy. I'm by no means a bullseye shooter but I just don't seem to be able to shoot my Legion as accurately as other pistols I've tried in the same division (CO). It's a shame because I love the ergonomics of the gun. It looks like your issue was slide related, I guess that could be another option. Possibly a non Legion one (X5 or full size p320). 

[LMS]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:48 PM, AZ123456 said:

I'm currently having a Barsto barrel fitted to my backup Legion for similar accuracy issues. I'll report back as soon as I get it back and test it. 

 

Will be very interested in the range report.

[ddc]

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/286321-anyone-install-a-barsto-barrel-in-their-x5-or-x5-legion/

[Racinready300ex]

My legion unlocks super easy, I can just move the gun forward quickly and you can hear the slide unlock then lock up when the gun stops. I'm running the 12 lbs recoil spring. 

 

I put a barsto barrel in it, it seemed to improve the groups slightly. I also noticed a increase in velocity and I see less POI difference between different weight bullets then I did with the factory barrel. Accuracy is still not where I want it.

[Akkid17]

On 9/26/2020 at 8:01 PM, Rich406 said:

The legion can be accurate, but you have to work towards it with your load.... 

 

I think it’s telling that Max Michel uses a older X5 upper on a legion lower as his match gun.....

Not anymore, he has fully swapped to legions this year with a custom milled slide from Vulcan Gunworks to run his signature optic

[Akkid17]

I swapped over to zero 147gr JHP's and I can cut out the upper A-zone at 25 yards offhand (standing unsupported) which is all I can ask of a pistol. I was using 125 gr gallant's and they were about 4-5" groups with several powders and also tried 124gr JHPs from montana gold and precision delta which both did well but the 147's are much nicer to shoot so I'm going to keep paying a premium for better feeling and performing ammo. 

[Rich406]

On 10/21/2020 at 9:33 AM, Akkid17 said:

Not anymore, he has fully swapped to legions this year with a custom milled slide from Vulcan Gunworks to run his signature optic

Not sure where you got that info, but looking at this pic USPSA put up from the 2020 nationals, he’s clearly using the older X5 upper. You can tell by the optics plate.

 

[JatCarver]

16 hours ago, Rich406 said:

Not sure where you got that info, but looking at this pic USPSA put up from the 2020 nationals, he’s clearly using the older X5 upper. You can tell by the optics plate.

 

Is that a factory barrel?