Why shooting major when minor has several advantages?

[motosapiens]

54 minutes ago, shred said:

Nationals also usually has a higher percentage of tight and partial targets which hurt Minor more.

 

Hicap Nationals showed that Major with a Dot and extra reloads (Open) beat Minor rifle with no reload (PCC), and Major Iron Sights (Limited) beat Minor with a Dot (CO) on the same stages.

 

The extra 8/10 rounds for Major/Minor SS makes it closer, but until you get to 6/8 in Revo does it become a real thing to shoot Minor in a division that offers both.

 

 

Well stated. we should just save this post and use it to settle all future discussions like this one.

[Balakay]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Nationals also usually has a higher percentage of tight and partial targets which hurt Minor more.

 

Hicap Nationals showed that Major with a Dot and extra reloads (Open) beat Minor rifle with no reload (PCC), and Major Iron Sights (Limited) beat Minor with a Dot (CO) on the same stages.

 

The extra 8/10 rounds for Major/Minor SS makes it closer, but until you get to 6/8 in Revo does it become a real thing to shoot Minor in a division that offers both.

 

 

Please do not allow logic to derail the OP's flawed premise

[waktasz]

Consider this....

 

When you shoot major, the target get bigger. 

Can you shoot a larger target faster than a smaller one? 

 

 

(I can't believe I even bothered to reply in this thread, lol)

[Sean_ht]

11 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

Here is a visual to show you what how hits vs time vs PF impact score. Ignore the arrows.


Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
 

Interesting. Where did you get this chart?

Basically in a 19sec stage, shooting 75%A+25%C, is almost equivalent of shooing 2sec faster (about 10% faster) with 25%A+75%C (major). But for minor, it is 50%A+50%C.

[Sean_ht]

15 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Sean, you made these points in your initial posting, and now you're refuting all the explanations to your question.

 

And, that's your prerogative.  You can continue to believe them.

 

But, the responders are very experienced, including a number of people who have shot minor and major (I have, also).

 

But, once again :

 

1.  you do not have to shoot all A's to make A class.  If you are shooting Major, speed can make up for some C's.

 

2.  You are correct, Major does make more recoil in a scientific sense, but it is possible to shoot Major as fast as you can shoot Minor

 

3.  If you reload, the price is Very Similar (My 9 mm Major is less expensive than my 9mm Minor, because of the heavier bullet).

      Most A shooters are reloading.  You are probably correct that if you are NOT reloading, Major is more expensive.  Matter of fact,

      I doubt you can purchase .40 Minor - most of it is Major +++ (PF 180 or more).   Tough to find .40 at PF 140 or 172.

 

Not trying to argue with you, but very experienced shooters  (HCH, Cuban, Memphis, RJH and IMA45 ) are all giving you some

Very Practical Answers to your question.  The practical advantages of shooting Major overcome the theoretical disadvantages

of shooting Minor, except in Revolver and possibly SS.  As HCH mentioned, no GM's are shooting Minor when they can shoot MAJOR.

 

Yes, you are correct that there are theoretical advantages to shooting minor, and cost is sometimes one if you don't reload, but

the bulk of A/M/GM's are reloading.

 

Not to dissuade you from shooting Minor - try it - I shot Limited Minor for a few years and enjoyed it.  Couldn't get out of C class,

but it was a weekend's entertainment.  But, not to listen to the practical advice you've been given by some excellent shooters 

above is doing YOU a disservice.     

Thanks for the respond. I am not refuting. The reason I post the question is to get the answer with the reasoning behind it, not just a yes and no answer (and  an added statement like "just accept it, because I know better"). 

I had shot PCC, CO, and Production in the past (all minor), and recently decided to shoot limited (major). Actually I will shoot my first limited match at the next weekend. I know some of the pros and cons of each load, but wanted to know how much weight each has, specially in a classifier stage. 

 

Basically the consensus of the responds suggests that the advantages of minor are negligible, when shooting against major in the same division. 

 

[waktasz]

It's not that the advantages to minor are negligible, it's that there are none.

[anonymouscuban]

Interesting. Where did you get this chart?
Basically in a 19sec stage, shooting 75%A+25%C, is almost equivalent of shooing 2sec faster (about 10% faster) with 25%A+75%C (major). But for minor, it is 50%A+50%C.

Stoeger posted it to his Instagram.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

[konkapot]

This has been discussed once or twice or three times or ten times before. 

 

The "extra rounds" thing on it's face makes sense...…...until you are standing in Shooting Area A and breaking down the stage. You DO have extra rounds, but there's no real time savings. 

 

Once in awhile you'll be at a club match and find a bunch of open close targets and some steel; this will give you "See! See minor is better" evidence. Then you'll look at the other 4-5-6 stages......

 

The math (in Limited) is overwhelming. If you want to prove it to yourself, shoot your local club match twice if they will let you. If they won't, set up some micro-drills and run yourself through them and do the actual math. 

[SwedishMoose]

On 2/15/2020 at 9:05 PM, Sean_ht said:

 

I would argue the clone can shoot faster, because of the more round per mags and less recoil. 

 

I'm not sure how much USPSA you shoot but you'll find almost never are people doing standing reloads. The slight increase in capacity is nowhere near as helpful as the boost in points. Also most people who shoot major PF reload... meaning that .40 is nowhere near as spicy as factory .40. 

[Sean_ht]

5 hours ago, SwedishMoose said:

 

I'm not sure how much USPSA you shoot but you'll find almost never are people doing standing reloads. The slight increase in capacity is nowhere near as helpful as the boost in points. Also most people who shoot major PF reload... meaning that .40 is nowhere near as spicy as factory .40. 

I don't know how "standing reload" relates to the point I made. 

I "am not sure how much USPSA you shoot ", but the number of rounds in the mags changes the shooting strategy and stage planning. 

 

With regards to reload vs factory, you have to make a fair comparison: reload 9 vs reload .40, or factory 9 vs factory .40 cal. In both cases the 9mm has less recoil.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Sean_ht
mistype: "sure"

[SwedishMoose]

47 minutes ago, Sean_ht said:

I don't know how "standing reload" relates to the point I made. 

I "am not dure how much USPSA you shoot ", but the number of rounds in the mags changes the shooting strategy and stage planning. 

 

With regards to reload vs factory, you have to make a fair comparison: reload 9 vs reload .40, or factory 9 vs factory .40 cal. In both cases the 9mm has less recoil.

 

Standing reloads relate because of the mag capacity 'advantage' brought up. If you're doing a lot of standing reloads, then maybe there's reason to look into more capacity, or you need to be reworking your stage plans. Capacity is irrelevant if you're being proactive with your reloads/planning.  

 

With regard to recoil, just grip the gun harder and stop being a pansy. There's a clear advantage that Major has over Minor, and that's your hit factor is much more forgiving. When you're shooting minor hit factor, you can't go as fast because A's matter a whole lot more. You can't treat USPSA like it's a bullseye match if you want to be competitive.

 

If minor HF was better you'd see the best shooters out there running minor HF. 

Edited February 17, 2020 by SwedishMoose

[AmarokTactical]

1 hour ago, Sean_ht said:

I don't know how "standing reload" relates to the point I made. 

I "am not dure how much USPSA you shoot ", but the number of rounds in the mags changes the shooting strategy and stage planning. 

 

With regards to reload vs factory, you have to make a fair comparison: reload 9 vs reload .40, or factory 9 vs factory .40 cal. In both cases the 9mm has less recoil.

You're clearly ignorant AF.

If you think that stage plans for CLASSIFIERS (which is your whole pointless argument) make a difference between 21 and 24 rounds in the gun, you are out of your mind. There's a reason you're stuck in C or B and are still on the struggle bus to A and it's absolutely a mental one.

 

If you think 21 vs 24 rounds will change your stage plan and strategy enough to effect score on a stage, you're again wrong. Ever heard of shooting over 21 rounds from one spot on a legal USPSA stage? Me either, but I have heard of people reloading while moving between positions which completely negates this ridiculously small difference in capacity.

Every single statement you have made is clearly that of a troll or someone with absolutely no grasp of the sport (or desire to learn). If you ask me, you need to try IDPA or Steel Challenge, you're not cut out for this sport.

Edited February 17, 2020 by AmarokTactical

[Nevadazielmeister]

I am getting this strange feeling that the OP is not interested in learning, only proving every else wrong. I would recommend people just let this guy prove himself after the "make ready" command instead of showing everyone with words on the internet. I personally have yet been able to talk sense into the internet keyboard commanders in this world and have never seen them show up to really confirm their theories. 

 

On the other hand, maybe this guy is so so good that he can beat the best with his theory, I mean it could happen, right?

[SwedishMoose]

He wants to be what's referred to as a "Paper GM."

[Sean_ht]

 

1 minute ago, AmarokTactical said:

You're clearly ignorant AF.

If you think that stage plans for CLASSIFIERS (which is your whole pointless argument) make a difference between 21 and 24 rounds in the gun, you are out of your mind. There's a reason you're stuck in C or B and are still on the struggle bus to A and it's absolutely a mental one.

 

If you think 21 vs 24 rounds will change your stage plan and strategy enough to effect score on a stage, you're again wrong. Ever heard of shooting over 21 rounds from one spot on a reasonable stage? Me either, but I have heard of people reloading while moving between positions. 

Every single statement you have made is clearly that of a troll or someone with absolutely no grasp of the sport (or desire to learn). If you ask me, you need to try IDPA or Steel Challenge, you're not cut out for this sport.

 

Good for you that you have a good grasp of sport. Keep it for yourself and when learn to respect the people, start your talking about your reasons.

It is funny and at the same time sad; when some people fall short in an argument, they start to attack the person.

 

[AmarokTactical]

1 minute ago, Sean_ht said:

 

 

Good for you that you have a good grasp of sport. Keep it for yourself and when learn to respect the people, start your talking about your reasons.

It is funny and at the same time sad; when some people fall short in an argument, they start to attack the person.

 

You're the one who has fallen short, been educated by many experienced nice folk and ignored it. You are beating a dead horse about something that is not debatable, hell it is something you can mathematically prove and we do that with Hit Factor. 

[bret]

If you are accurate,  minor has the advantage,  otherwise you are giving up 5-7% of your points.

 

Shooting major for most people isn't a problem.

[Sean_ht]

1 minute ago, AmarokTactical said:

You're the one who has fallen short, been educated by many experienced nice folk and ignored it. You are beating a dead horse about something that is not debatable, hell it is something you can mathematically prove and we do that with Hit Factor. 

Nice folks! attacking the person who raised a question and being rude is not a good qualification for being "nice folk". I refer you to the last three comments.

[ChuckS]

We are done for now....

[ima45dv8]

38 minutes ago, Sean_ht said:

Nice folks! attacking the person who raised a question and being rude is not a good qualification for being "nice folk". 

I agree with Sean. There's been a few displays in this thread that don't meet Brian's long-established code of conduct. 

 

From the Forum Guidelines:

Quote

Posting Guidelines
Attitude
Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.
No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.
Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable

 

This site was created to encourage the discussion of shooting. Differing opinions are not only desirable, but a key component. 

Address the issue; not the person.

 

Play nice, or play elsewhere.

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, bret said:

If you are accurate,  minor has the advantage...

It doesn’t work that way. The fastest and most accurate shooters in the entire world all choose major in Limited.  Always.

 

When discussing high hit factor stages like a classifier or a fast-paced field course? C’s barely hurt at all.

 

When faced with a cruel partial target? You’ll see a proficient shooter rail across the other ones, transition to the partial, and punch two Charlies in the shoulder without hitting the brakes. There’s no incentive to hit the A zone at all.

 

When shooting on the move? Cs don’t hurt as long as you move your feet fast. The entire C zone is your aiming area. Split fast while running hard in this position... while Mr Minor has to work harder to chase the Alphas.
 

As long as your time is noticeably quicker than the minor guy who has to chase Alphas on those targets you will stomp him into the ground every time.

 

Things like that are how Major dominates.

 

In USPSA speed and hits are both factors in your score, and a lot of guys take years to truly understand how often you come out ahead if you shoot the stage 10% faster but drop a few more points

 

Switching topics back to classifiers:

 

If anyone tells you that you need all As on your classifiers, ignore any other advice they ever give you.

 

Even in Production, a few Cs on an M or GM classifier are the expectation. (My very first M class Production classifier had a great time, flawless reload, and 3Cs and a D.)

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[MemphisMechanic]

12 hours ago, waktasz said:

It's not that the advantages to minor are negligible, it's that there are none.

Precisely.

 

If it were possible to shoot Major in Prod or CO, you and I would have presses set up in .40

[Stafford]

A bit off-topic, but this thread has me thinking.... Should shooters in Production class be more concerned about accuracy than speed? Or is it all relevant in that you're shooting against other Production shooters and speed is still king?

[Dutchman195]

3 hours ago, SwedishMoose said:

He wants to be what's referred to as a "Paper GM."

Reading the OPs first post.

 

I will agree that if you just want to hit A class on paper. Yea, doesnt matter what you shoot. I would say the top guys will shoot a classifier fast with all As, so it really doesnt matter the caliber 

 

Want to be a 'competitive' A or higher, it will matter. SS is really the only division that Major/Minor is a real battle and it depends solely on the match. Open & Lim major will always win. Someone said you have to aim for 90% of the points in a match. If you shoot Major, thats a A/C on every target or a 1 to 1 ration. IF you shoot minor you have to shoot was more As than Cs

[Sean_ht]

3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

It doesn’t work that way. The fastest and most accurate shooters in the entire world all choose major in Limited.  Always.

 

When discussing high hit factor stages like a classifier or a fast-paced field course? C’s barely hurt at all.

 

When faced with a cruel partial target? You’ll see a proficient shooter rail across the other ones, transition to the partial, and punch two Charlies in the shoulder without hitting the brakes. There’s no incentive to hit the A zone at all.

 

When shooting on the move? Cs don’t hurt as long as you move your feet fast. The entire C zone is your aiming area. Split fast while running hard in this position... while Mr Minor has to work harder to chase the Alphas.
 

As long as your time is noticeably quicker than the minor guy who has to chase Alphas on those targets you will stomp him into the ground every time.

 

Things like that are how Major dominates.

 

In USPSA speed and hits are both factors in your score, and a lot of guys take years to truly understand how often you come out ahead if you shoot the stage 10% faster but drop a few more points

 

Switching topics back to classifiers:

 

If anyone tells you that you need all As on your classifiers, ignore any other advice they ever give you.

 

Even in Production, a few Cs on an M or GM classifier are the expectation. (My very first M class Production classifier had a great time, flawless reload, and 3Cs and a D.)

 

 

Agree, the point you make has been illustrated in a previous post:

17 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

Interesting. Where did you get this chart?

Basically in a 19sec stage, shooting 75%A+25%C, is almost equivalent of shooing 2sec faster (about 10% faster) with 25%A+75%C (major). But for minor, it is 50%A+50%C.

The source is Stoeger 's post in Instagram, that @ anonymouscuban posted in this topic.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Sean_ht