Why shooting major when minor has several advantages?

[Sean_ht]

Considering the goal be to become an A or higher -level shooter, it is required to land all shots in the A-zone in the classifier stages. So why bother shooting major in the divisions in which both the minor and the major are allowed?

 

Perhaps some can argue shooting minor creates less recoil, so better control and faster second shot, much cheaper than shooting a major cal., and as a bonus one or more extra rounds in magazine. 

The only downside of minor is the scoring of 1 point less in C-zone compare with the major. Yes, it does effect the overall ranking in a match, but not the classifier (assuming the goal is to gain HF that qualifies for A/G/GM).

 

I am basically trying to understand the justification for shooting 40SW/45 in limited or SS division, and 38-supper/9-major in open-division. 

For the open, I know the 9-major has an edge over minor because of the effectiveness of the comp. However, I have tried both 9- major and minor in an open handgun, and the difference was negligible. Basically comp. helps to manage the recoil in two different ways, the extra gas pressure of 9-major makes the comp. to be effective, and for 9-minor, the comp. acts as an extra weight in the end of the muzzle.

[HCH]

Classifiers aren’t matches. 

[IVC]

You have to do the math - each point down is equivalent of 1/HF in time on the stage (classifier is just another stage). If you're shooting minor and hit a C, you dropped two points, which is equivalent to 0.4 seconds on a 5 HF classifier (0.2 seconds on a 10 HF classifier). That's a lot of time for a single C and you will either shoot "close C" from time to time, or you'll be too slow. 

 

Remember, when GM-s shoot short stages at Nationals and those stages later become classifiers, they usually shoot at the B or A level. Hit factors on classifiers are like a ratchet wrench - they get updated up with every successful hero/zero run.

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

the goal is to become an A+ shooter, it is required to land all shots in the A-zone.  Why bother shooting major?

 

If you are shooting Major, you don't have to shoot all A's.

 

You can shoot faster and miss the A a few times.

 

Not sure Major makes "more recoil" - I've shot a friends .40 Major, and

it didn't feel any different to me than my 9mm Minor loads.

 

Minor is NOT a "lot cheaper" than Major - about the same.

 

 

[ima45dv8]

As someone around here once said. . .if I was shooting against a clone of myself, and I was shooting Major and my clone was shooting Minor, I'd kick his ass every time.

[Sean_ht]

4 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

If you are shooting Major, you don't have to shoot all A's.

 

You can shoot faster and miss the A a few times.

 

Not sure Major makes "more recoil" - I've shot a friends .40 Major, and

it didn't feel any different to me than my 9mm Minor loads.

 

Minor is NOT a "lot cheaper" than Major - about the same.

 

 

 

If the goal is to gain an A or higher classification, yes it is needed to shoot A-zone.

 

Major does make more recoil. It is a fact. You can't say 1.2 is not larger than 1. What you said is like someone say I should not get a ticket for DUI, because I didn't feel that I was drunk. 

 

Major on average is about 25%-50% more expensive than minor, depending on the cal of major. I agree, being cheaper vs "lot" cheaper is subjective, but it is still cheaper.

[Sean_ht]

2 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

As someone around here once said. . .if I was shooting against a clone of myself, and I was shooting Major and my clone was shooting Minor, I'd kick his ass every time.

 

It is just a blind claim. I would like to hear the reasoning for this claim.

[Sean_ht]

5 hours ago, HCH said:

Classifiers aren’t matches. 

Agree, but I don't understand how it is related to the topic?!

[MemphisMechanic]

In production, I distinctly remember that  my very first M classifier had two deltas involved. But it was very fast.

 

In Major, a GM classifier run pretty much never involves all As. 

 

Change your thinking.  

Edited February 16, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[ima45dv8]

35 minutes ago, Sean_ht said:

 

It is just a blind claim. I would like to hear the reasoning for this claim.

I think it's obvious. Even if both shooters are shooting ALL Alphas, the clone can't shoot any faster than I can. He's my clone.

He eventually gets beat on points.

[Sean_ht]

13 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

I think it's obvious. Even if both shooters are shooting ALL Alphas, the clone can't shoot any faster than I can. He's my clone.

He eventually gets beat on points.

 

I would argue the clone can shoot faster, because of the more round per mags and less recoil. 

[MemphisMechanic]

See my reply above.

 

Limited Major will always crush Limited minor because when shooting major you don’t really care about shooting a certain percentage of Cs. Which is much higher than you might think.

 

They shoot faster because 20-30% Cs at maximum possible pace is always a winning recipe, versus the minor guy that has to be harder on his sights to ensure he’s firing 90% alphas.
 

Once you learn and truly understand hit factor scoring, this will all make sense.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[RJH]

20 minutes ago, Sean_ht said:

 

I would argue the clone can shoot faster, because of the more round per mags and less recoil. 

 

You can argue that, but you ain't shooting faster enough to make the points up.  I shot  limited major and minor and can tell you from experience major is better.  I guess you might spend 5000 or so on a custom limited minor blaster and prove everyone here who is telling you facts not conjecture, wrong.  Or be be pissed at yourself for buying a limited minor gun, regardless of price.  Revo minor is better however and they are looking for shooters, and SS minor is better according to some people some of the time, but those are the only 2 divisions where major doesn't have a distinct advantage

[HCH]

4 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

Agree, but I don't understand how it is related to the topic?!

 

Show me a national contender that shoots minor in a division that offers major PF. 

 

There isn’t one. 

 

A guy might make Master, or even GM shooting Minor, but they won’t be winning area or national championships. 

[anonymouscuban]

See my reply above.
 
Limited Major will always crush Limited minor because when shooting major you don’t really care about shooting a certain percentage of Cs. Which is much higher than you might think.
 
They shoot faster because 20-30% Cs at maximum possible pace is always a winning recipe, versus the minor guy that has to be harder on his sights to ensure he’s firing 90% alphas.
 
Once you learn and truly understand hit factor scoring, this will all make sense.
 

This all day. I'm new to the sport but it didn't take me long to figure out hit factor scoring and the effect of time vs points has on it.

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[Hi-Power Jack]

11 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

 

1.  If the goal is to gain an A or higher classification, yes it is needed to shoot A-zone.

 

2.  Major does make more recoil. 

 

3.  Major on average is about 25%-50% more expensive than minor 

 

Sean, you made these points in your initial posting, and now you're refuting all the explanations to your question.

 

And, that's your prerogative.  You can continue to believe them.

 

But, the responders are very experienced, including a number of people who have shot minor and major (I have, also).

 

But, once again :

 

1.  you do not have to shoot all A's to make A class.  If you are shooting Major, speed can make up for some C's.

 

2.  You are correct, Major does make more recoil in a scientific sense, but it is possible to shoot Major as fast as you can shoot Minor

 

3.  If you reload, the price is Very Similar (My 9 mm Major is less expensive than my 9mm Minor, because of the heavier bullet).

      Most A shooters are reloading.  You are probably correct that if you are NOT reloading, Major is more expensive.  Matter of fact,

      I doubt you can purchase .40 Minor - most of it is Major +++ (PF 180 or more).   Tough to find .40 at PF 140 or 172.

 

Not trying to argue with you, but very experienced shooters  (HCH, Cuban, Memphis, RJH and IMA45 ) are all giving you some

Very Practical Answers to your question.  The practical advantages of shooting Major overcome the theoretical disadvantages

of shooting Minor, except in Revolver and possibly SS.  As HCH mentioned, no GM's are shooting Minor when they can shoot MAJOR.

 

Yes, you are correct that there are theoretical advantages to shooting minor, and cost is sometimes one if you don't reload, but

the bulk of A/M/GM's are reloading.

 

Not to dissuade you from shooting Minor - try it - I shot Limited Minor for a few years and enjoyed it.  Couldn't get out of C class,

but it was a weekend's entertainment.  But, not to listen to the practical advice you've been given by some excellent shooters 

above is doing YOU a disservice.     

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

 

If the goal is to gain an A or higher classification, yes it is needed to shoot A-zone.

 

 

 

this is provably false. As an anecdote, I made master in SS and Limited by hitting some charlies. I had been getting pretty close shooting SS minor, but when I switched to major I made M within the month.

 

The reason people don't shoot minor more is because statistically no one in limited is successful shooting minor, even tho a number of top shooters have tried it.

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

 

I would argue the clone can shoot faster, because of the more round per mags and less recoil. 

why don't you try it, instead of just arguing it? 

 

I have tried it, over a period of years. On certain types of targets (like the 5 shots per target of can you count) I can shoot slightly faster shooting minor. Everything else appears to be about even.

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, HCH said:

 

Show me a national contender that shoots minor in a division that offers major PF. 

 

There isn’t one. 

 

A guy might make Master, or even GM shooting Minor, but they won’t be winning area or national championships. 

Unless you are talking about singlestack. Around half of area matches have been won by minor shooters the last few years. But your assertion is clearly true for limited and open.

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

 

Major on average is about 25%-50% more expensive than minor, depending on the cal of major. I agree, being cheaper vs "lot" cheaper is subjective, but it is still cheaper.

 

You don't help your case by posting provably false statements.

 

buying in similar quantities it costs me 10 cents/round to load 124gr 9mm (or 11-ish if I want to go with 147's). It costs me 12 cents/round to load 40 major. That is less than 25-50%. It's only a couple dollars per training session, not really significant compared to the gas to get to the range, etc...

[anonymouscuban]

Here is a visual to show you what how hits vs time vs PF impact score. Ignore the arrows.


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[rustychev]

As a SS shooter I have found that other than something like a dedicated SS match or a all classifier match I generally want my minor gun.  I shot area 3 last year as minor and a friend shot it major and as far as I know major is all he shoots. Talking with him after that match he wises he had shoot it minor.  Having said that area 3 is a match built by two open shooters.

 

classifiers and SS Nats = major

Everything other than that = it depends on the stages.  I have found most prod and limited/open shooters build stages that are not really 8 round friendly and minor can open up a lot of choices. 

[HCH]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Unless you are talking about singlestack. Around half of area matches have been won by minor shooters the last few years. But your assertion is clearly true for limited and open.

 

Sorry, I thought we were discussing real divisions

 

real question though: has minor ever won nationals in SS?

[motosapiens]

51 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Sorry, I thought we were discussing real divisions

 

real question though: has minor ever won nationals in SS?

no, and the reasons are pretty obvious, and have been discussed here many times:

• in 2019 1/3 of the courses were classifier types (6 round arrays with lots of partials and 1-handed shooting). Minor is at a big disadvantage on stages like that.
• for many years, SS nats were held at PASA, where they went out of their way to give an advantage to major
• Nils shoots major

Edited February 16, 2020 by motosapiens

[shred]

Nationals also usually has a higher percentage of tight and partial targets which hurt Minor more.

 

Hicap Nationals showed that Major with a Dot and extra reloads (Open) beat Minor rifle with no reload (PCC), and Major Iron Sights (Limited) beat Minor with a Dot (CO) on the same stages.

 

The extra 8/10 rounds for Major/Minor SS makes it closer, but until you get to 6/8 in Revo does it become a real thing to shoot Minor in a division that offers both.