First match, DQ'd for "Unsafe Gun Handling"

[WFargo]

Just as a side note on missing a mobile bullet catch:

Our indoor ranges here in the Netherlands almost all have the same rule for IPSC matches:  missing a mobile bullet catch will result in a disqualification. 

We do this for Level I and Level II matches, but Level III and higher it is no longer allowed to have this rule in place. 

It was put in place here to 'protect' the ranges from excessive damage. 

[nasty618]

27 minutes ago, WFargo said:

We do this for Level I and Level II matches, but Level III and higher it is no longer allowed to have this rule in place. 

It was put in place here to 'protect' the ranges from excessive damage. 

 

I am curious to know, does the IPSC governing body provide a written exception to these clubs to implement clubs' own safety rules? Or do the clubs have a free rein on what they can do and what they can enforce?  

 

For USPSA, clubs may not enforce their own rules without having the rules approved and documented with the headquarters.  Some local clubs do break this core rule though, unfortunately.  

 

Quote

3.3 Applicability of Rules
USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host
organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal
precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in
compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express
written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these
provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

 

 

For the OP, as frustrating as a disqualification might be ESPECIALLY if it was an unfair DQ for breaking an unapproved local club rule that is not in the general rulebook - as others have pointed out, just shake it off and go back to shoot and train.  If however, the local club creates their own rules or arbitration is unfair and not in compliance with the main rule book AND you are good enough to know the rules and are frustrated with the situation - then maybe it's time to find a new place to shoot. The reason i say  "if you know the rules" is - a lot of local shooters who dont know the rules keep coming back to shoot these bad local matches simply because they dont know any better.  In that case - ignorance is bliss.

[Zincwarrior]

On 2/8/2020 at 6:34 PM, ard212 said:

It was an IPSC match, I missed by a few inches tops, and it wasn't high.

So to be clear, if you missed the target you were warned and could be DQ'd?  If thats correct, is this a magical place where shooters don't miss?  IN Texas we have a whole shooting group named Alpha Mike...

[Thomas H]

7 hours ago, bimmer1980 said:

Well, at an indoor range, miss a mobile bullet catch, 2meters away , 2 times in a row, hitting the sidewalls of the range, while doing a slow and secure pace, would be unsafe gun handling, at least in my eyes.

 

But i don´t know if that was the case.

 

For the sake of my curiosity, when you are running shooters, at what point do you go from "unsafe gun handling" to "poor gun handling" and stop DQing them?

 

What criteria do you use?

[obsessiveshooter]

If a first time shooter looked like they were just shooting in the general direction of targets, like they didn't understand how to use their sights, and it seemed like they were unconcerned about where those bullets were flying, I feel it's a matter of time till they send one over the berm. As an RO, I'd be watching carefully for an opportunity to yell "stop". Hopefully there would be an opportunity beforehand to give them some advice to slow down, see their sights and take it serious.

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[Cardinal]

2 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

I am curious to know, does the IPSC governing body provide a written exception to these clubs to implement clubs' own safety rules? Or do the clubs have a free rein on what they can do and what they can enforce? 

 

 

Quote

3.3.1  IPSC matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline.  Host organizations may not enforce
local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction.  Any voluntarily
adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to IPSC matches without the
express consent of the Regional Director and the IPSC Executive Council.

 

In this case it may be the following, IF it was in the WSB:

Quote

10.4.1  A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing
by the match organizers as being unsafe.  Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target,
which  then  travels  in  an  unsafe  direction,  will  not  be  disqualified,  but  the  provisions  of  Section  2.3  may
apply.

 

[ard212]

8 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

If a first time shooter looked like they were just shooting in the general direction of targets, like they didn't understand how to use their sights, and it seemed like they were unconcerned about where those bullets were flying, I feel it's a matter of time till they send one over the berm. As an RO, I'd be watching carefully for an opportunity to yell "stop". Hopefully there would be an opportunity beforehand to give them some advice to slow down, see their sights and take it serious.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

Nonono, none of my bullets were "Flying" anywhere, my misses were mostly to the side of the target, I mean, yeah, I missed, but not by much, also, I'm a first time shooter, at least for IPSC, I have put more than 3000 rounds through this pistol, I might not be a perfect shot, but I know how to align my sights. I always kept my gun pointing down range and my finger off the trigger while I wasn't engaging any targets.

  

10 hours ago, Zincwarrior said:

So to be clear, if you missed the target you were warned and could be DQ'd?  If thats correct, is this a magical place where shooters don't miss?  IN Texas we have a whole shooting group named Alpha Mike...

That was my issue with the situation, I'm a new shooter, I'm going to miss, this was the 8th stage, I had maybe 10 misses during the entire match, and I had shot more thatn 100 rounds.

 

Also, before this gets any more out of control, I've made up my mind, I'm going to talk to the same RM, and I'm going to ask him for advice on how to properly avoid this in the future, not going to hold a grudge against neither him nor the RO, it was a hot day, he was also shooting, things happen, no reason to ruin my entire shooting experience because of this.

 

Thanks for all the comments and suggestion, definitely will be sticking around.

Edited February 12, 2020 by ard212

[Schutzenmeister]

1 hour ago, ard212 said:

[...], before this gets any more out of control, I've made up my mind, I'm going to talk to the same RM, and I'm going to ask him for advice on how to properly avoid this in the future, not going to hold a grudge against neither him nor the RO, it was a hot day, he was also shooting, things happen, no reason to ruin my entire shooting experience because of this.

 

You're gonna do just fine! 

[obsessiveshooter]

Sounds like a wise plan!

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[ima45dv8]

Best plan possible.

Have fun!

[perttime]

4 hours ago, ard212 said:

... I'm going to talk to the same RM, and I'm going to ask him for advice on how to properly avoid this in the future,

...

 

 

... Please post the answer.

Also, Is the Written Stage Briefing, or some match or range briefing document, available?

[bimmer1980]

19 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

For the sake of my curiosity, when you are running shooters, at what point do you go from "unsafe gun handling" to "poor gun handling" and stop DQing them?

 

What criteria do you use?

 

I don´t run shooters, but i have to shoot indoor matches only.

To miss a mobile bullet catch from a very short distance (twice!!!), there must be something very wrong when you go at a slow pace.

Thats weird point shooting or AD. Thats more than just poor gun handling.

 

 

[Zincwarrior]

10 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

You're gonna do just fine! 

I have to second (or third) your plan here.

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, bimmer1980 said:

 

I don´t run shooters, but i have to shoot indoor matches only.

To miss a mobile bullet catch from a very short distance (twice!!!), there must be something very wrong when you go at a slow pace.

Thats weird point shooting or AD. Thats more than just poor gun handling.

 

 

And yet, "weird point shooting" is not a DQ-able offense.  And they weren't ADs, because there wouldn't be two shots right next to the target (as described) if they were ADs.  (And I'll note that I've seen PLENTY of people miss close targets, including nationally-ranked GMs.)

 

You said you'd DQ the guy for unsafe gun handing.  I was just asking your criteria, which you can't seem to provide. However, as you don't seem to be an RO, that makes sense---ROs know they are required to actually have a rule to cite to uphold their DQ call.  They can't go on whether or not something "doesn't seem right" or whatever.

 

@ard212, it sounds like you have made a good choice---talk to the RM, find out what the problem specifically was, and go from there.

 

IPSC/USPSA is a ton of fun, don't let one bad instance ruin it for you!

[bimmer1980]

17 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

And yet, "weird point shooting" is not a DQ-able offense.  And they weren't ADs, because there wouldn't be two shots right next to the target (as described) if they were ADs.  (And I'll note that I've seen PLENTY of people miss close targets, including nationally-ranked GMs.)

 

You said you'd DQ the guy for unsafe gun handing.  I was just asking your criteria, which you can't seem to provide. However, as you don't seem to be an RO, that makes sense---ROs know they are required to actually have a rule to cite to uphold their DQ call.  They can't go on whether or not something "doesn't seem right" or whatever.

 

@ard212, it sounds like you have made a good choice---talk to the RM, find out what the problem specifically was, and go from there.

 

IPSC/USPSA is a ton of fun, don't let one bad instance ruin it for you!

Well, point shooting issn´t allowd here, in IPSC. Don´t know if thats a national thing or a IPSC rule.

 

GM´s are not shooting at a slow, beginner like pace. The factor "slow" is important in this case.

[Schutzenmeister]

10 minutes ago, bimmer1980 said:

Well, point shooting issn´t allowd here, in IPSC. Don´t know if thats a national thing or a IPSC rule.

 

Herr Bimmer ...

 

It's not an IPSC rule.  You will find that BDS places numerous restrictions on shooters and IPSC in general that are not contained within IPSC rules.  This is largely due to German firearms laws.  (Similar things, on various topics, can be said of several other regions within IPSC …)

 

(Ich weiss … Ich hab' fast drei jahr im Deutschland gewont.)

[perttime]

15 minutes ago, bimmer1980 said:

Well, point shooting issn´t allowd here, in IPSC. Don´t know if thats a national thing or a IPSC rule.

 

...

 

IPSC does not limit your ways to hit the targets.

I sometimes shoot very near targets without actually seeing sights - but I haven't practiced shooting from the hip.

 

In some countries, national legislation sets limits to what you are allowed to do. I recall somebody mentioning that you can't shoot while moving in Germany. Not sure if  that is a fact, though.

[Thomas H]

23 minutes ago, bimmer1980 said:

Well, point shooting issn´t allowd here, in IPSC. Don´t know if thats a national thing or a IPSC rule.

 

GM´s are not shooting at a slow, beginner like pace. The factor "slow" is important in this case.

 

As people have pointed out, that isn't an IPSC rule.    (I am amused by the idea that people are somehow to be forced to aim for every shot magically by government fiat, I'll note.  Good luck with that.)

 

As for "slow" -- again, ROs are actually required to state rules for their DQ.  If the statement is "this is unsafe gun handling because he missed while shooting slowly," feel free to support that with a rule.  When you can't, feel free to let it go.

 

[bimmer1980]

7 hours ago, perttime said:

 

IPSC does not limit your ways to hit the targets.

I sometimes shoot very near targets without actually seeing sights - but I haven't practiced shooting from the hip.

 

In some countries, national legislation sets limits to what you are allowed to do. I recall somebody mentioning that you can't shoot while moving in Germany. Not sure if  that is a fact, though.

Moving is okay, the rules says "while clearly running"

 

7 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

As people have pointed out, that isn't an IPSC rule.    (I am amused by the idea that people are somehow to be forced to aim for every shot magically by government fiat, I'll note.  Good luck with that.)

 

As for "slow" -- again, ROs are actually required to state rules for their DQ.  If the statement is "this is unsafe gun handling because he missed while shooting slowly," feel free to support that with a rule.  When you can't, feel free to let it go.

 

 

Well, i´m pretty sure you are right, there issn´t a rule for missing even the closest shots, but whats the rule for accidental discharges? Doesn´t that fall under "unsafe gun handling"? Is it only an AD if you AD when you don´t point your gun near a target?

 

7 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Herr Bimmer ...

 

It's not an IPSC rule.  You will find that BDS places numerous restrictions on shooters and IPSC in general that are not contained within IPSC rules.  This is largely due to German firearms laws.  (Similar things, on various topics, can be said of several other regions within IPSC …)

 

(Ich weiss … Ich hab' fast drei jahr im Deutschland gewont.)

 

Hi Schützenmeister!

Warst du in Rammstein stationiert?

 

Well, that (german) rule is stupid anyway, cause you can´t tell if someone pointshoots, as long as the gun is in front of his face.

 

[Schutzenmeister]

29 minutes ago, bimmer1980 said:

 

Well, i´m pretty sure you are right, there issn´t a rule for missing even the closest shots, but whats the rule for accidental discharges? Doesn´t that fall under "unsafe gun handling"? Is it only an AD if you AD when you don´t point your gun near a target?

 

No.  ADs are covered under 10.4 and tend to be very specific and involve a shot being fired.  USGH falls under 10.5 and covers infractions (generally speaking) which do not involve a shot being fired.  While it is possible to run afoul of more than one rule at a time, they are not interchangeable.

 

Quote

 

Hi Schützenmeister!

Warst du in Rammstein stationiert?

 

 

Nein ... Ich hatte eine stellung am flugplatz Spangdahlem und auch Bitburg.  (Please forgive any spelling errors.  It's hard enough to remember my 25 years ago German, but combine that with the spell-checker on this stupid tablet being in English it's a losing battle!).

Edited February 13, 2020 by Schutzenmeister

[Malarky112]

I am guessing this is a rule for that particular range. Couple of clubs around here have concrete barrier type walls between stages and were alwsys told if a bullet hits one, we’re going home. Same range has a high muzzle rule which can also get you DQ’d. 
Sounds like they should explain this better but you’re on the right path if asking them for help to prevent it again. 

[Thomas H]

On 2/12/2020 at 6:11 PM, bimmer1980 said:

Well, i´m pretty sure you are right, there issn´t a rule for missing even the closest shots, but whats the rule for accidental discharges? Doesn´t that fall under "unsafe gun handling"? Is it only an AD if you AD when you don´t point your gun near a target?

 

In USPSA, I can draw, aim at a spot on the berm where no target is, and take a shot that is nowhere near a target, and it isn't an AD.   I can shoot at targets and miss them--and that isn't an AD.  I can fire a shot between targets (literally ADing) while transitioning between targets, and as long as that shot goes into the berm, it isn't a DQ even though it is an AD.
 

Not all ADs are DQs. 

 

Shooting at a target and simply missing definitely isn't going to be a DQ.

 

Now, as people have said---maybe there is a local range rule (properly spelled out in the WSB for that stage, with that information available to all competitors prior to shooting the stage) making misses in the described situation a DQ offense.  But the IPSC rules themselves don't say that.

 

[bimmer1980]

On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 8:38 PM, Thomas H said:

 

In USPSA, I can draw, aim at a spot on the berm where no target is, and take a shot that is nowhere near a target, and it isn't an AD.   I can shoot at targets and miss them--and that isn't an AD.  I can fire a shot between targets (literally ADing) while transitioning between targets, and as long as that shot goes into the berm, it isn't a DQ even though it is an AD.
 

Not all ADs are DQs. 

 

Shooting at a target and simply missing definitely isn't going to be a DQ.

 

Now, as people have said---maybe there is a local range rule (properly spelled out in the WSB for that stage, with that information available to all competitors prior to shooting the stage) making misses in the described situation a DQ offense.  But the IPSC rules themselves don't say that.

 

Ok, thanks for explaining!

 

I get a weird feeling when IPSC/USPSA shooters cant hit a big box, 2 yards away, while going slow. Thats why i thought maybe they counted it as an AD.   

[SGT_Schultz]

47 minutes ago, bimmer1980 said:

Ok, thanks for explaining!

 

I get a weird feeling when IPSC/USPSA shooters cant hit a big box, 2 yards away, while going slow. Thats why i thought maybe they counted it as an AD.   

 

In all seriousness, I suggest taking a Range Officer certification class and exam.  It will explain a lot.

 

I'm doing so myself in about a month.

[Glockster1]

Shooting over a berm is a DQ. If you hit a wall that is unavoidable and is beyond the direct line of target sight , thats not a DQ

Edited February 19, 2020 by Glockster1