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ard212

First match, DQ'd for "Unsafe Gun Handling"

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Hi, this is my first time posting in this forum, from the start I want to apologize if my english is not 100 % clear, not my native language.

 

I'm kind of a "New" gun owner, been shooting for a few months, decided to get into IPSC, took a class, signed up for a match in order to get "Certified", both RO teaching the class were very clear that my objective on this match shouldn't be to win or to get a high score, but to not get DQ'd, so, during the match, I wasn't focusing on hitting perfect shots, I was just trying to meet the required number of shots and mantain proper weapon handling.

 

While running the penultimate stage, I got stopped by the RO, asked to clear my weapon, and he gave me a DQ for "Unsafe Gun Handling", turns out that while engaging a target, I had a double miss, and well, I missed, bullets didn't hit the target, they hit the wall behind it, this had already happened once 2 stages before, I got a warning then, I didn't agree with the RO's logic, but I didn't want to make a fuss about it since it was just a warning.

 

My problem is, that was a safe direction for me to shoot, I was actively engaging the target, yes, the bullets missed the wooden plank behind the target, but the wooden plank was basically the same size as the target, if I were to miss, I was going to hit the wall, with that logic, the only targets that were "Safe" to miss where those at the back of the stage.

 

I contested the decision, RO called RM, he begrudgely agreed with him, I kept pushing the issue (Respectfuly) because I really didn't agree with their logic, but I was unable to convince them to change their mind.

 

I'm not really angry because I got DQ'd, I'm angry because this was something I wasn't told during my classes, and that I also don't seem to see in the rules, I'm not planning to re-visit that disagreement with neither the RO or the RM, and I also know it probably would be pointless, even if it turns out I'm the right, I just want to know for sure so that I don't make the same mistake again.

 

Thanks !

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Was this an indoor match or a match with solid side berms made of something other than dirt

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4 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

Was this an indoor match or a match with solid side berms made of something other than dirt

Outdoors, solid, example:

 

8_HEI8IL6dCNmvIGoLbFUYkbJ2_w8ZK56z2ZiNNW

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I don't shoot IDPA, but if missing a target - unless you were shooting way high - is a BS call.
They placed the target there, a miss is not unsafe, unless, like I said you were missing by many, many feet.

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24 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

I don't shoot IDPA, but if missing a target - unless you were shooting way high - is a BS call.
They placed the target there, a miss is not unsafe, unless, like I said you were missing by many, many feet.

It was an IPSC match, I missed by a few inches tops, and it wasn't high.

Edited by ard212

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Never heard of this but I do USPSA, not IPSC. Was this in Canada?

 

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43 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Never heard of this but I do USPSA, not IPSC. Was this in Canada?

 

Nope, Argentina.

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2 minutes ago, Umbrarian said:

Were others who missed in a similar way DQ'ed?

No, only other DQ during this match was from another group and that was an accidental discharge.

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4 minutes ago, Out of Ammo said:

Never heard of this in USPSA.

I honestly think this was one of those situations where "Guy doesn't like other guy" sadly sounds like a plausible explanation.

 

My only concern is, should I take the class and try again on the next match ? If I get the same RO, and I miss on a similar situation, I might DQ'd again, and at that point I would be just wasting time and ammo.

Edited by ard212

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24 minutes ago, ard212 said:

I honestly think this was one of those situations where "Guy doesn't like other guy" sadly sounds like a plausible explanation.

 

My only concern is, should I take the class and try again on the next match ? If I get the same RO, and I miss on a similar situation, I might DQ'd again, and at that point I would be just wasting time and ammo.

I would ask other IPSC shooters at that range if a miss is typically considered Unsafe Gun Handling. If they say it is, they may be able to explain why and how shooters are supposed to know about it. I don't believe that it is standard IPSC practice so perhaps is is a local range restriction that "everyone just knows" - except when they don't. ;) 

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5 minutes ago, bdpaz said:

I would ask other IPSC shooters at that range if a miss is typically considered Unsafe Gun Handling. If they say it is, they may be able to explain why and how shooters are supposed to know about it. I don't believe that it is standard IPSC practice so perhaps is is a local range restriction that "everyone just knows" - except when they don't. ;) 

If that was the case, one would think when they give you the class they would mention it, I'm trying to look for the path of least resistance right here, I could just take the class and go to the next match, but if I don't at least ask for clarification from someone in the range, another RO maybe, I think that might signal that basically "Everything goes" as long as they say it does, don't get me wrong, I recognize both RO and RM respective authority right here, but at the same time, I'm looking at the rules and this is just not there.

Edited by ard212

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1 hour ago, ard212 said:

should I take the class and try again on the next match ?

Yes.

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1 minute ago, ima45dv8 said:

Yes.

Welp, I'll do that then, should I also ask for the RO's report about my DQ ? Just to make sure he actually wrote down the same thing he said to me ?

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"Unsafe gun handling"  is covered under rule 10.5 in the IPSC rulebook.    Read it and ask nicely which part of 10.5 you violated.

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Just now, open17 said:

"Unsafe gun handling"  is covered under rule 10.5 in the IPSC rulebook.    Read it and ask nicely which part of 10.5 you violated.

Ehm, I did that right on the spot, both the RO and the RM were not very "Cooperative" about giving me specifics.

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I'm not familiar with any DQ reporting requirements or protocols in IPSC. 

For now, I wouldn't ask for it. Just ask around for clarification on this "rule". As was already suggested, it may be a in-house range rule.

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1 minute ago, ima45dv8 said:

I'm not familiar with any DQ reporting requirements or protocols in IPSC. 

For now, I wouldn't ask for it. Just ask around for clarification on this "rule". As was already suggested, it may be a in-house range rule.

Roger that, if I get told that such "Rule" doesn't exist, even for that particular range, do you have any suggestions on how to go about it ?

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Slip a fresh fish into the bottom of his range bag and hope he doesn't find it until he smells it?

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How many clubs are there down there? I'd consider not going to this one anymore until your skills improve, and then return and lay waste to the entire place, and have them declare you their king. 

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37 minutes ago, waktasz said:

How many clubs are there down there? I'd consider not going to this one anymore until your skills improve, and then return and lay waste to the entire place, and have them declare you their king. 

Only good range in the entire country, not really interested in going pro, I just want to relax and do some shooting, problem is, I'm waiting for an MPX that should be here before the end of March, and sadly, only place where I'm allowed to shoot it is IPSC.

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A Miss isn't typically "unsafe gun handling" in IPSC. It is just -10 points.

 

At my local range, our Level II match makes use of the shotgun ranges too. Written Stage Briefings there include a statement that hitting any fixed structures of the range is considered unsafe gun handling. There are some structures in the shooting area but stage design easily avoids shots in their direction. Also, we have to use "bullet traps" in that part of the range, but missing the target AND the "bullet trap" is not considered unsafe gun handling. We often have a reduced angle of fire for a stage: less than 180 degrees (IPSC rules allow more or less than 180). We mark that with bright colored posts. That has never been problem.

 

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10 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

I'm not familiar with any DQ reporting requirements or protocols in IPSC

For now, I wouldn't ask for it. Just ask around for clarification on this "rule". As was already suggested, it may be a in-house range rule.

 

Normally the RO writes down the exact rules which was broken and lead to the DQ on score sheet. And informs the RM/area RM.

So the competitor should have a clear answer to why they were DQ, even if they dont agree with it.

 

 

As perttime mentions missing a target on its own isnt a DQ under IPSC. But there are sometimes range restrictions and violating those can lead to a DQ. As an example we have had rifle matches on a military range where pointing the barrel over the berm is a violation. Reason being the range is situated under the approach and departure lanes to Norway's largest airport and also population in the area behind the berms. Military ranges also often have less than 180 deg fire angles. In such cases it must clearly be mentioned in the WSB and also ahead of the match.

 

 

Edited by Cardinal

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