xdf3 Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Hi. I can't seem to find if this was answered before (I remember I've read a discussion somewhere), but it's really hard to find. Is there any explicit rule in IPSC that states that a shooter has to wait for Unload and show clear command before unloading and ejecting the round? Isn't it possible to unload and eject a round anytime after the start signal? Why would it be prohibited? I've heard some RO's asking to wait for commands but I can't seem to find any reason why. Of course I'm going to wait to pull the trigger, but I feel safe at unloading instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Don’t know about IPSC. I know USPSA rules don’t forbid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 It's not plausible to prohibit ejecting a round. People do it all the time in the middle of shooting. It is possible for an RO to request you show clear again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnStewart Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 It is possible for an RO to request you show clear again.Agreed. Assuming that there is always a chance that there is a round in the chamber that you didn’t see, it’s to the shooter’s benefit to wait for the RO to have a look & issue the “if clear..” command. Just a good habit to reinforce in my opinion. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xdf3 Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Any way to explain this to an RO or anybody else? I was told before that I should wait for commands, but why should I wait, if it's not prohibited, and it's not even unsafe? By the way, when I do it, I just wait for every command, I won't pull the trigger before the "hammer down" command Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnStewart Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Any way to explain this to an RO or anybody else? I was told before that I should wait for commands, but why should I wait, if it's not prohibited, and it's not even unsafe? By the way, when I do it, I just wait for every command, I won't pull the trigger before the "hammer down" commandSeveral reasons, mainly that the rules require that the actions be taken (both by the shooter and the RO) in a specified sequence. If the shooter rushes through them, the RO may require them to do it all again regardless. It’s also, as I stated above, an opportunity for the RO to possibly prevent the shooter from DQ’ing himself if the chamber isn’t clear after the IYAFUSC command (yes, an extractor can fail to extract a round and leave a round in the chamber, I’ve seen it happen several times this year already). The commands also trigger other rules that specify when a shooter is no longer allowed to fire and then the range is clear for others to start resetting. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xdf3 Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, JohnStewart said: Several reasons, mainly that the rules require that the actions be taken (both by the shooter and the RO) in a specified sequence. If the shooter rushes through them, the RO may require them to do it all again regardless. It’s also, as I stated above, an opportunity for the RO to possibly prevent the shooter from DQ’ing himself if the chamber isn’t clear after the IYAFUSC command (yes, an extractor can fail to extract a round and leave a round in the chamber, I’ve seen it happen several times this year already). The commands also trigger other rules that specify when a shooter is no longer allowed to fire and then the range is clear for others to start resetting. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I'm talking about Unload and show clear only. So, let's say I accept the fact that they will have to tell me to unload and show clear (that happens anyway), I can't understand why I shouldn't do what I did (like unloading and showing clear before the command). Since I can do that anytime, I can't understand when the rule changes. It seems obvious to me but not for some people and RO's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnStewart Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 I'm talking about Unload and show clear only. So, let's say I accept the fact that they will have to tell me to unload and show clear (that happens anyway), I can't understand why I shouldn't do what I did (like unloading and showing clear before the command). Since I can do that anytime, I can't understand when the rule changes. It seems obvious to me but not for some people and RO'sAhhhh, I didn’t appreciate you were asking about only that command. I can’t think of any reason to wait for that command before doing it, assuming there hasn’t been any “STOP” command or anything else unusual happening. As long as you wait at that point for the next command, it seems fine to me. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 21 minutes ago, xdf3 said: I'm talking about Unload and show clear only. So, let's say I accept the fact that they will have to tell me to unload and show clear (that happens anyway), I can't understand why I shouldn't do what I did (like unloading and showing clear before the command). you can unload before the command. If you show clear before the command, the RO may not be ready, and may need to ask you to show clear again. I personally sometimes unload early but I hold the slide open until the RO has seen it. no need to be in a hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcfoto Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 remember the commands are "IF you are finished, unload and show clear" and "IF clear, hammer down and holster." So they are conditional. When I am done and I've left some steel but decide its not worth the time or ammo, I'll say to the RO, "I'm finished." and start unloading. Usually, I'll wait with my cylinder open for the ICHDH and let them catch up with the commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Are you possibly being confused by the RO telling you to not "hammer down / holster" before the command rather than the whole sequence? Some shooters rush through and holster before the RO has given that command and then get their nose out of joint when the RO gets them to repeat the action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 remember the commands are "IF you are finished, unload and show clear" and "IF clear, hammer down and holster." So they are conditional. When I am done and I've left some steel but decide its not worth the time or ammo, I'll say to the RO, "I'm finished." and start unloading. Usually, I'll wait with my cylinder open for the ICHDH and let them catch up with the commands.If you're waiting with the cylinder open, the correct command is "If clear, cylinder closed, holster." Waiting for the RO to remember the correct command is one of the entertaining things about shooting Revo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xdf3 Posted July 3, 2019 Author Share Posted July 3, 2019 7 hours ago, terrydoc said: Are you possibly being confused by the RO telling you to not "hammer down / holster" before the command rather than the whole sequence? Some shooters rush through and holster before the RO has given that command and then get their nose out of joint when the RO gets them to repeat the action. No. I've never pulled the trigger before the command. Maybe once 'cause I misheard it but it wasn't an issue. I just wait with the slide open. I've heard some RO's "whining" later about it, saying we shooters should wait for commands. Btw one of these, I was told he was a new RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 When I'm done I strip the magazine out, flip and catch the cartridge left in the chamber, then pull and hold back the slide for the RO. I do that when I am done, not when I hear IFULASC. I don't drop the slide (nor the hammer) until I hear ICHDAH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xdf3 Posted July 3, 2019 Author Share Posted July 3, 2019 29 minutes ago, elguapo said: When I'm done I strip the magazine out, flip and catch the cartridge left in the chamber, then pull and hold back the slide for the RO. I do that when I am done, not when I hear IFULASC. I don't drop the slide (nor the hammer) until I hear ICHDAH. Same, so what would you say if they told you to wait for commands? That's my point. I don't know what to say. I tried to say I'm doing what I can do while still shooting (like unloading, or ejecting a round) but it didn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p7fl Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Shot a classifier on Sunday. Brain dead shot first 2 targets with 2 rounds instead of one. Stopped, UNSC, and then flagged. RO was caught unaware. I could hear in his voice I had caught him unaware, was confused, so I did it again, but, sllloowwly. I called the commands as I went the 2nd time. I was pissed at myself, but taking it out on nervous ROs is not what USPSA should be about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 1 hour ago, xdf3 said: Same, so what would you say if they told you to wait for commands? That's my point. I don't know what to say. I tried to say I'm doing what I can do while still shooting (like unloading, or ejecting a round) but it didn't work. Ignore him and show him an unloaded pistol. I see nothing in the rulebook that requires me to wait. The precondition to unloading and showing clear is to be finished with the course of fire. I know when I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 20 hours ago, xdf3 said: I'm talking about Unload and show clear only. So, let's say I accept the fact that they will have to tell me to unload and show clear (that happens anyway), I can't understand why I shouldn't do what I did (like unloading and showing clear before the command). R.O. needs to announce "range is clear". I will do that if I have had a clear view of the unload and show clear process, or I will ask the shooter to repeat the process. In my experience, shooters really like it when r.o.'s take the safety aspects seriously and I can't remember any shooter seeming to resent my need to verify the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 I know the rules state that the competitor is to allow the RO to inspect the chamber, but I really don’t see the need. If you drop the hammer and we get a BANG, you’re done. The RO is not responsible for your AD, which is why the command is “if clear”, not “I see clear”. I do get annoyed when an RO didn’t get a great look at the chamber, then makes me unholster and do all of it again. Idk why I need to be babysat while unloading my gun, and if it didn’t go off when the hammer dropped, why do we need to repeat the process?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 39 minutes ago, HCH said: I know the rules state that the competitor is to allow the RO to inspect the chamber, but I really don’t see the need. If you drop the hammer and we get a BANG, you’re done. The RO is not responsible for your AD, which is why the command is “if clear”, not “I see clear”. I do get annoyed when an RO didn’t get a great look at the chamber, then makes me unholster and do all of it again. Idk why I need to be babysat while unloading my gun, and if it didn’t go off when the hammer dropped, why do we need to repeat the process?? The RO is responsible for maintaining the safety of the range. Your annoyance, or mine for that matter, doesn't factor into that equation. Some people need to be babysat because some peoples brain flies off after the timer goes off. BTW, you can still have a round in the chamber and still not go bang when the hammer is dropped. Multiple fail safes is a good idea on a gun range with 100+ competitors chasing targets for speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 29 minutes ago, CSEMARTIN said: The RO is responsible for maintaining the safety of the range. Your annoyance, or mine for that matter, doesn't factor into that equation. Some people need to be babysat because some peoples brain flies off after the timer goes off. BTW, you can still have a round in the chamber and still not go bang when the hammer is dropped. Multiple fail safes is a good idea on a gun range with 100+ competitors chasing targets for speed. And then you get DQ’ed at the next stage when a round flies out at the LMR. I don’t recall a single time I asked a competitor to redo everything so I could inspect the chamber. Mag out? Check Saw cartridge fly out of chamber? Check Gun goes “click” not “boom”? Check Not seeing an issue here. Maybe I’ve shot too much 3 gun, where people are expected not to require babysitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, HCH said: And then you get DQ’ed at the next stage when a round flies out at the LMR. I don’t recall a single time I asked a competitor to redo everything so I could inspect the chamber. Mag out? Check Saw cartridge fly out of chamber? Check Gun goes “click” not “boom”? Check Not seeing an issue here. Maybe I’ve shot too much 3 gun, where people are expected not to require babysitting. I would make you show me again if you did not let me see the first time even if I saw everything on your list. Why? because you may eventually find it annoying enough to actually start "showing clear" as the rules call for. I am sure you are not and have never been this guy but I have seen shooters forget to remove the mag when unloading at the end of a really bad run quite a few times, if their SOP was a rushed, flip, catch, pull trigger, nobody needs to look, their day would have ended early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 If you "speed unload" I will ask you to show me an empty chamber on MY schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loudgp Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 As an ro i would just repeat the command till i see unload and clear... its not a time crunch to reholster.. the others can wait on us... I'd rather be safe than sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 1 hour ago, HCH said: I know the rules state that the competitor is to allow the RO to inspect the chamber, but I really don’t see the need. If you drop the hammer and we get a BANG, you’re done. The RO is not responsible for your AD, which is why the command is “if clear”, not “I see clear”. I do get annoyed when an RO didn’t get a great look at the chamber, then makes me unholster and do all of it again. Idk why I need to be babysat while unloading my gun, and if it didn’t go off when the hammer dropped, why do we need to repeat the process?? It is not all that unusual for a round to go off on the second hit in one of my guns (revolver and Tanfo tuned for lightest double action). Odds are favorable, but if you are wrong once in your lifetime that could be someone's life changing event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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