Unload and show clear command

[HCH]

56 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I would make you show me again if you did not let me see the first time even if I saw everything on your list. Why? because you may eventually find it annoying enough to actually start "showing clear" as the rules call for.  I am sure you are not and have never been this guy but I have seen shooters forget to remove the mag when unloading at the end of a really bad run quite a few times, if their SOP was a rushed, flip, catch, pull trigger, nobody needs to look, their day would have ended early.

 

And their day should end early. Safety is ALWAYS the shooter’s responsibility. The RO should try to assist the shooter to safety go through the COF,  but if the shooter ADs because they weren’t paying attention, I don’t want them running around with a loaded gun anymore that day. 

 

I should also add this: The ROs that usually want me to unholster and hold the slide open so they can finger the chamber are usually the same ones that barely know range commands or how to score targets. Maybe the last part is why the first sticks out in my mind so much. 

[MikeBurgess]

17 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

And their day should end early. Safety is ALWAYS the shooter’s responsibility. The RO should try to assist the shooter to safety go through the COF,  but if the shooter ADs because they weren’t paying attention, I don’t want them running around with a loaded gun anymore that day. 

 

I should also add this: The ROs that usually want me to unholster and hold the slide open so they can finger the chamber are usually the same ones that barely know range commands or how to score targets. Maybe the last part is why the first sticks out in my mind so much. 

Honest question, why the rush to get holstered? 

 

I have run thousands of shooters and most unload and present the gun for the RO to inspect, they may flip and catch they may not, but almost universally they present and wait for "IF Clear..." 

[HCH]

34 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Honest question, why the rush to get holstered? 

 

I have run thousands of shooters and most unload and present the gun for the RO to inspect, they may flip and catch they may not, but almost universally they present and wait for "IF Clear..." 

 

I never rush. I do catch the cartridge (usually), Open the slide so I can look at the chamber (because once again, it’s my responsibility, and I’m not trusting the RO with my match fee), and hammer down. I take my time, both at LMR and ULSC. This is probably another reason I find it annoying when the RO is like “Uh... yOu GoT ahEad oF MuH iNstrUctioNs.”

[MikeBurgess]

6 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

I never rush. I do catch the cartridge (usually), Open the slide so I can look at the chamber (because once again, it’s my responsibility, and I’m not trusting the RO with my match fee), and hammer down. I take my time, both at LMR and ULSC. This is probably another reason I find it annoying when the RO is like “Uh... yOu GoT ahEad oF MuH iNstrUctioNs.”

So you look but do not present for them to look?  add that step and you will never have be annoyed again

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

I never rush. I do catch the cartridge (usually), Open the slide so I can look at the chamber (because once again, it’s my responsibility, and I’m not trusting the RO with my match fee), and hammer down. I take my time, both at LMR and ULSC. This is probably another reason I find it annoying when the RO is like “Uh... yOu GoT ahEad oF MuH iNstrUctioNs.”

Why would you finish a great post by berating the volunteers who make it possible for you to shoot? Just curious, what is your level of NROI certification? How many matches do you work a year?

[GunBugBit]

On 7/2/2019 at 8:43 AM, xdf3 said:

I'm talking about Unload and show clear only. So, let's say I accept the fact that they will have to tell me to unload and show clear (that happens anyway), I can't understand why I shouldn't do what I did (like unloading and showing clear before the command).

Since I can do that anytime, I can't understand when the rule changes. It seems obvious to me but not for some people and RO's

Because sometimes the RO will be distracted by the score keeper or something else.  Respect the RO's need to ensure your gun is clear.

[HCH]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Why would you finish a great post by berating the volunteers who make it possible for you to shoot? Just curious, what is your level of NROI certification? How many matches do you work a year?

 

Certified RO. I work 1-2 majors a year and help run squads at locals quite often. I have set matches. Am I deemed worthy of expressing an opinion now?

 

In one of my previous posts I detailed the type of RO that I usually have this interaction with. Most RO’s have enough sense to be watching the gun while all of this is going on. The ones that don’t are the ones that these posts are directed towards. 

[HCH]

15 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

So you look but do not present for them to look?  add that step and you will never have be annoyed again

 

If the RO is actually doing their job, it is not hard for them to see as well. 

[MikeBurgess]

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload and Show Clear” or “Unload and Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his firearm and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed downrange, magazine removed, slide/bolt locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.
If a competitor has been stopped by the Range Officer, they will be given “Unload and show clear” as the command.

 

sounds like they are doing their job and are just expecting you to do yours

[GunBugBit]

44 minutes ago, HCH said:

If the RO is actually doing their job, it is not hard for them to see as well. 

When you're in the role of shooter and you've finished your stage, your job isn't to make sure the RO is doing his job.  Your job is to play nice and help ensure a safe experience for everyone on the range.  Just work with the RO and make sure he can see your cleared gun, in the event you insisted on unloading before his command.  I have no idea why you would have the attitude you do, especially since you are a certified RO.

[CSEMARTIN]

Comments deleted.

Edited July 5, 2019 by CSEMARTIN
See above

[HCH]

1 hour ago, GunBugBit said:

  I have no idea why you would have the attitude you do, especially since you are a certified RO.

 

Read my post which describes the RO’s that I typically have this type of interaction with. 

[HCH]

1 minute ago, CSEMARTIN said:

 

Maybe you are the perfect RO, a God-given gift to the world, sent here to show the rest of us lesser men how it should be done.

 

Or maybe you are being arrogant.

 

This is not meant to be a personal attack. I just think maybe you need to reflect on all of this some more. We are all friends here.

 

Im saying I try to pay attention when the shooter is unloading. I try to peek in the chamber to ensure it is empty. If it is not, it is still the shooter’s problem, which is why the next command is “if clear....”

 

If I AD at the next match, I am going to blame myself and only myself. I think a lot of times these threads shy away from the responsibility of the shooter. 

 

Off topic, but where I find this logic is rule 8.1, which ends with “as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the firearm.” 

[pjb45]

It says “always” not only. 

The rule infers “show clear” not to the shooter but to the RO.

 

I have asked the shooter to show clear a second time so I could personally see clear. 

 

AND, I was at a match where the shooter did not show clear to the RO and dropped the hammer on a live round that went bang. DQ followed regardless the round going off bothered the squad and the shooter. 

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by pjb45

[xdf3]

15 hours ago, GunBugBit said:

Because sometimes the RO will be distracted by the score keeper or something else.  Respect the RO's need to ensure your gun is clear.

That's not what I said. It's ok for me to receive commands, repeat stuff (well, what should I repeat? The gun is unloaded with the slide open).

 

I can't understand why they would say I should wait for commands, if I didn't do anything special (like unloading, and ejecting a round)

[xdf3]

14 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload and Show Clear” or “Unload and Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his firearm and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed downrange, magazine removed, slide/bolt locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.
If a competitor has been stopped by the Range Officer, they will be given “Unload and show clear” as the command.

 

sounds like they are doing their job and are just expecting you to do yours

I don't know if you're answering to me, but I can't read where what most shooters do is forbidden. Unloading and showing clear before the command was given. It even stays within the rules  "he must lower his firearm and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed downrange, magazine removed, slide/bolt locked or held open, and chamber empty"

[elguapo]

One either has the confidence to know what the rules are and stand one's ground in the face of stupid officiating, or not.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

20 hours ago, HCH said:

Im saying I try to pay attention when the shooter is unloading. I try to peek in the chamber to ensure it is empty. If it is not, it is still the shooter’s problem, which is why the next command is “if clear....

 

When they change the last command to "Range is clear, probably,  I do not really know" , then I won't feel like it is my job to see an empty chamber. 

[BARRYJ]

At a state match, when a guy showed clear, I noticed that the bullet came out of the case and was stuck in the chamber.  If he would not have shown me the chamber, he would have had a problem on the next stage.

 

[HCH]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

When they change the last command to "Range is clear, probably,  I do not really know" , then I won't feel like it is my job to see an empty chamber. 

 

There is a reason that the command used to be “I see clear” and was changed to “if clear.”  The former put the burden on the RO. The current nomenclature puts the burden on the shooter, as it should be. 

[xdf3]

16 hours ago, elguapo said:

One either has the confidence to know what the rules are and stand one's ground in the face of stupid officiating, or not.

 

That's why I started this thread. I needed to know what part of rules are exactly letting me do that

[pjb45]

On 7/2/2019 at 4:55 PM, xdf3 said:

Hi. I can't seem to find if this was answered before (I remember I've read a discussion somewhere), but it's really hard to find.

 

Is there any explicit rule in IPSC that states that a shooter has to wait for Unload and show clear command before unloading and ejecting the round?

 

Isn't it possible to unload and eject a round anytime after the start signal? Why would it be prohibited?

 

I've heard some RO's asking to wait for commands but I can't seem to find any reason why.
 

Of course I'm going to wait to pull the trigger, but I feel safe at unloading instantly. 

 

The rule doe not state you have to wait. 

The thread morphed somewhat on the “clear” part. 

The gun can be emptied and  being prepared to show clear prior to the command. 

The command has to be articulated as part of the RO’S responsibility. 

Clear must be demonstrated to the RO prior to the final command....Range is clear. 

 

Some RO(s) are less flexible but try to exercise their best judgement the way that works for them within the guidelines/rules. 

[elguapo]

3 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

 

The rule doe not state you have to wait. 

The thread morphed somewhat on the “clear” part. 

The gun can be emptied and  being prepared to show clear prior to the command. 

The command has to be articulated as part of the RO’S responsibility. 

Clear must be demonstrated to the RO prior to the final command....Range is clear. 

 

Some RO(s) are less flexible but try to exercise their best judgement the way that works for them within the guidelines/rules. 

 

OP there's your answer.  It requires some thought.

[elguapo]

19 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

When they change the last command to "Range is clear, probably,  I do not really know" , then I won't feel like it is my job to see an empty chamber. 

 

If the pistol goes click, range is clear.

 

If the pistol goes bang, shooter gets to try again so it does go click and the goes to Dairy Queen.

[pjb45]

The cleaners for my pants if it goes bang or perhaps the sphincter turns coal into a diamond