Outer Limits - unsafe footing

[RickT]

My wife and I shoot a 4 stage afternoon match at a local club; show up after work, pay a small fee and cycle through the stages at your own pace.  Other than not painting the targets it's extremely well run, the bays are flat and the stages accurate.  Unfortunately, the footing in the OL bay is essentially beach sand.  You're standing in a significant hole, the boxes are 1x3 wood and the right edge of the l/h box has no support (it's essentially a big spring).  Right before we moved up the that stage someone was DQ'ed after they fell and dropped their gun.  The DQ was certainly proper, but what should an MD do with this stage?  Can an MD allow able-bodied individuals to take the 4 seconds if they feel the stage is unsafe?

 

 

 

 

 

[ZackJones]

1 hour ago, RickT said:

My wife and I shoot a 4 stage afternoon match at a local club; show up after work, pay a small fee and cycle through the stages at your own pace.  Other than not painting the targets it's extremely well run, the bays are flat and the stages accurate.  Unfortunately, the footing in the OL bay is essentially beach sand.  You're standing in a significant hole, the boxes are 1x3 wood and the right edge of the l/h box has no support (it's essentially a big spring).  Right before we moved up the that stage someone was DQ'ed after they fell and dropped their gun.  The DQ was certainly proper, but what should an MD do with this stage?  Can an MD allow able-bodied individuals to take the 4 seconds if they feel the stage is unsafe?

 

 

Based on what you said the stage is not setup in compliance with the rules and should not be used for classification. The boxes should be 4x4 not 3x3. Moving between boxes is risky for all competitors. At WSSC this year Team Glock Captain Shane Coley fell between boxes and dropped his gun resulting in his DQ from the match. Based on them not painting plates I'm surprised they DQ'd the person that dropped the gun. If they are willing to ignore one rule (panting plates between competitors) why both enforcing any rules??

 

Regarding the MD allowing you to shoot from center box - Given this range ignores rules then I'm sure they'd let the MD make that call. Per rule though it's Range Master decision. If the stage is in an unsafe condition the Range Master should discontinue shooting on it until it's made safe for all competitors. Have you expressed your safety concerns to the MD? 

 

[Racinready300ex]

14 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

. At WSSC this year Team Glock Captain Shane Coley fell between boxes and dropped his gun resulting in his DQ from the match.

 

 

Shane falls all the time, I shot with him a A8 a couple years ago and he fell twice in that match. (still won limited) I think he was wearing a pair of like skater shoes, probably didn't help lol.

[RickT]

I'm sure the boxes were 4x4.  The match doesn't prohibit paint (BYOPaint), but if you're shooting a stage after 10 guns there's a lot to paint, OTOH we've had to shoot 5 to Go with essentially black plates.  The match is very inexpensive and many folks are shooting the 4 stages after work and before dinner so moving things along quickly is high priority.  Personally, I'd rather pay a few more bucks and paint every 2-3 shooters at least.

 

I mentioned something to the MD and he indicated he had tried to level the boxes, but doing so with loose sand is useless - loose sand footing, standing in a hole, wood boxes not supported and bad footing.  They need to get rid of some of the sand and bring in a yard of base.  As for me, I'll take whatever penalty the MD wants to apply if they don't improve the stage by this weekend's 8 stage match or I'll simply skip the stage.

[motosapiens]

I personally like the sand better. it seems to dampen my steps so I can get the sights settled on the target earlier. I've been having my best outerlimits times ever lately. Nonetheless, the range does have some gravel base piled somewhere. If you bring a wheelbarrow, I'm sure you can get a few folks to give you hand shoveling it and fix it up to your standards. I think the sand appeared to fill in deep puddles due to the rain before the memorial day match.

 

We bring our own paint, btw.

[Maximis228]

8 hours ago, RickT said:

The match doesn't prohibit paint (BYOPaint), but if you're shooting a stage after 10 guns there's a lot to paint, OTOH we've had to shoot 5 to Go with essentially black plates. 

 

 

This is like shooting USPSA without pasting between shooters... It is a MUST to ensure correct scoring.

[nso123]

47 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

 

This is like shooting USPSA without pasting between shooters... It is a MUST to ensure correct scoring.

I agree with this, especially after having been attributed a miss on a plate that I saw the hit on. The plates were only painted between squads, so I was not able to show that I had made the hit.

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Maximis228 said:

 

This is like shooting USPSA without pasting between shooters... It is a MUST to ensure correct scoring.

 

that is somewhat true, but you can get 99.8% correct without painting if people are paying attention. and for $3 entry fee, i'm cool with bringing my own paint. For a real match with a real entry fee and prizes, we paint with religious fervor. For a weeknight practice match where we're trying to get 60 people through in a couple hours, some folks slack off in order to save 30-60 minutes and finish before dark.

[edyan]

I think they should replace this stage with one that consists of pure speed shooting ... let the ones that are rewarded for moving fast & shooting fast participate in Action Steel.

I'm a little prejudiced on this one because I shoot A class & occasionally an M class score for 7 stages but with Outer Limits I have to accept a C class score because of the 4 sec penalty for non movement... I really enjoy shooting Steel Challenge, it has allowed me to continue in the shooting sports at 73 and still be competitive.

 

edyan

A646

Edited June 26, 2019 by edyan

[ZackJones]

8 hours ago, edyan said:

I think they should replace this stage with one that consists of pure speed shooting ... let the ones that are rewarded for moving fast & shooting fast participate in Action Steel.

 

If I were king for the day I'd eliminate the movement. Change the box to 3x3 and have everyone shoot from the center box only. Or another possibility would be to keep the two outside boxes and shot it like showdown but I don't know without setting it up if the outside boxes would be too far apart. 

[RickT]

16 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I personally like the sand better. it seems to dampen my steps so I can get the sights settled on the target earlier. I've been having my best outerlimits times ever lately. Nonetheless, the range does have some gravel base piled somewhere. If you bring a wheelbarrow, I'm sure you can get a few folks to give you hand shoveling it and fix it up to your standards. I think the sand appeared to fill in deep puddles due to the rain before the memorial day match.

 

We bring our own paint, btw.

I don't have a problem with the sand.  Different venues have all sorts of surfaces.  We just need to eliminate the gap between the surface and the box which presents a real opportunity for snagging the trailing foot.  I'm sure the MD would honor a request for the 4 second penalty even for a competitor who would be otherwise considered able bodied.

 

[edyan]

Zack ... Hopefully you will king of Steel Challenge one day...you got my vote

 

edyan 

A646

[ezra650]

4 hours ago, ZackJones said:

 

If I were king for the day I'd eliminate the movement. Change the box to 3x3 and have everyone shoot from the center box only. Or another possibility would be to keep the two outside boxes and shot it like showdown but I don't know without setting it up if the outside boxes would be too far apart. 

I'd also like to see this change and I believe most steel competitors would as well. Steel challenge is about fast and accurate. If we wanted to get our cardio in we would go shoot a USPSA match lololol. 

 

I wonder what if any changes will be made in regards to steel challenge with the presidential election coming up?? Any insight Zack? The only one I know of running besides Foley is Valentine. 

[motosapiens]

 

I don't know what it looked like monday night, but this is what the box in question looked like at 4:00 this afternoon when we were setting up. I don't see an issue with it, but i can see that as more people run the stage, it will probably get dug out and need to be re-leveled and smoothed out. It's touching the ground , but the ground is a 1/2" lower on the inside of the  box. Of course even with gravel or road-base, it gets dug out pretty quick. We should have a shovel in the shed, so if it starts to look dug out, just grab a shovel and fill it back in and smooth it out in 30 seconds. FWIW I think mrs moto and I both had PR's on this stage tonight (her in pcc, me in rfpi). I was on my way to a PR in limited too, but choked on the last string. 

 

FWIW, I also would not mind making this stage non-movement. I'm only 57, so movement is still one of my strengths, and this stage doesn't exactly require athleticism, but there are some elite shooters out there that have mobility issues, and this stage basically prevents them from being competitive at a national or international level when they are competitive on all the other stages.

 

I know a couple other local shooters have expressed similar opinions.... and they are all folks for whom the movement is NOT an issue.... they just want it to be more accessible for folks that have mobility challenges.

[outerlimits]

7 hours ago, ezra650 said:

I'd also like to see this change and I believe most steel competitors would as well. Steel challenge is about fast and accurate. If we wanted to get our cardio in we would go shoot a USPSA match lololol. 

 

the steel challenge did just that for one year in 1992.  i thought it was lame, as were the pneumatic plates.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by outerlimits

[ezra650]

17 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

FWIW, I also would not mind making this stage non-movement. I'm only 57, so movement is still one of my strengths, and this stage doesn't exactly require athleticism, but there are some elite shooters out there that have mobility issues, and this stage basically prevents them from being competitive at a national or international level when they are competitive on all the other stages.

 

I know a couple other local shooters have expressed similar opinions.... and they are all folks for whom the movement is NOT an issue.... they just want it to be more accessible for folks that have mobility challenges.

 

 

I'm in the same boat. In fact outer limits is currently 1 of only 2 stages I've shot over 100% in RFPO. If I win a steel match I don't want it to be because I scurried between two boxes faster. I want to win based on shooting speed and accuracy.

 

I do agree it looks a little lame when shot from one position. Plate placement could be modified. Maybe move the 12" plates closer and leave the stop at 18yd to create a distance change up... I don't know, but it would be nice for a change. 

 

I'm about to post some info regarding a conversation I had with Mike Valentine over the web about steel challenge changes.... or is that not allowed on the enos forum??

[ezra650]

Also that 1992 match video is pretty cool! That match was shot before I was born. The pneumatic plates are interesting, but I think pointless. 

[ZackJones]

22 hours ago, ezra650 said:

I'm about to post some info regarding a conversation I had with Mike Valentine over the web about steel challenge changes.... or is that not allowed on the enos forum??

I'd think it's allowed so post away. I would like to know his thoughts on the subject. I know we (steel challenge competitors) have 100% support from Foley. 

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

I know we (steel challenge competitors) have 100% support from Foley. 

 

do we have his 100% support in getting rid of the movement so as to remove an unnecessary barrier to some athletes? Or at least revisit the penalty, and perhaps make it a percentage of the string time, instead of a draconian 4 seconds?

Edited June 28, 2019 by motosapiens

[ChuckS]

22 hours ago, ezra650 said:

I'm about to post some info regarding a conversation I had with Mike Valentine over the web about steel challenge changes.... or is that not allowed on the enos forum??

 

15 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

I'd think it's allowed so post away. I would like to know his thoughts on the subject. I know we (steel challenge competitors) have 100% support from Foley. 

 

Rule change proposals are fine. Just stay away from USPSA politics. And start a new thread as this one is about unsafe footing...

[GOF]

I agree with the proposal to shoot Outer Limits in the same manner as Showdown... eliminating the movement on the clock between the shooting boxes.

Steel Challenge should be about speed & accuracy... not long legs and quicker movement. Steel Challenge has become the shooting sport for those who previously shot USPSA/IDPA/ICORE at a high level, but with advancing age have lost the necessary mobility to move quickly enough to maintain their ratings in those games.

They still want to shoot their guns and pay their annual USPSA membership and individual match fees. They are a consumer market. That should be considered.

As well.... removing the movement on Outer Limits will help reduce the possibility of an accident among aging shooters who have not yet accepted their age.

The OP on this thread addressing a potentially unsafe range condition for Outer Limits is spot on!

 

[RickT]

SC is also, as has been often observed, an excellent starter sport for kids and the movement is an unnecessary element for any beginner.

[Racinready300ex]

On 6/26/2019 at 12:25 PM, ezra650 said:

If we wanted to get our cardio in we would go shoot a USPSA match lololol.

 

Isn't it like 6' of movement? And you do it what 3 times? I'm not exactly in great shape and even I wouldn't call that cardio.

[GunBugBit]

It's 4 times and yes it's just 6 feet.  I do better on the stage just gliding as smoothly as I can between the boxes.

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, GunBugBit said:

It's 4 times and yes it's just 6 feet.  I do better on the stage just gliding as smoothly as I can between the boxes.

 

I was close, I've only got to shoot that stage once before. I have to travel to big matches to shoot that and don't really have time for that. But I liked the stage and the movement aspect honestly.

 

Seems like moving smoothing and being ready to shoot as soon as you get in the next box would be more important then foot speed with such a short movement. That and being able to call a hit and move immediately after breaking the last shot in the first box, maybe even be leaning out on that shot.