Outer Limits - unsafe footing

[edyan]

The format is not unchangeable...if you look at the history of SC there are courses of fire that were once part of the match that are no longer part of the current program... Flying M for example and others.

 

edyan A646

RFRO-A

PCCO-A

 

Steel Challenge Courses.pdf

[wtturn]

At some point we have to stop dumbing down our sports.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, Ming the Merciless said:

 

That's Okay for you, but not everyone that shoots Steel Challenge shoots USPSA.

still, why have *one* stage that prevents an athlete in a wheelchair from having any chance at winning a big match, even if he can compete for the win on every other stage?

 

if half or all the stages had movement, I would say movement was a fundamental part of the sport. If only 1 stage has movement, it seems to me like a barrier, and nothing more.

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, wtturn said:

At some point we have to stop dumbing down our sports.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
 

especially with outdated and pointless equipment rules.... lulz. 

[GOF]

I can understand that not all ranges will be able to afford the same degree of footing for the movement between the boxes. My thought is--- if the footing on a range is loose gravel or shifting sand, or something else that requires great movement care and slows movement, as opposed to cropped grass on a hard & firm surface --- should those scores count for Classification/Peak scores? Could there not be a Rule regarding the surface used to allow OL classifications to be used?

I am a Super Senior, and A Class in PCCO/RFRO/RFPO --- I don't advocate removing OL (although I do think a young, skinny, 6 foot 6 kid oughta be made to wear lead boots). .... Just leveling the playing field regarding classifications. If I'm moving on a slippery or uneven surface, my scores will not be the same as if I were on a firm surface. Just a thought.

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, GOF said:

if I'm moving on a slippery or uneven surface, my scores will not be the same as if I were on a firm surface. Just a thought.

 

 

my scores are the same on a slippery or uneven surface as on a firm surface. it's only 6'. Movement speed is a total non-issue. Leaving early and shooting early is the issue.

 

It takes me around 2 seconds, shot-to-shot, whether I'm dryfiring it on cement in the garage, or live-firing in the bay with the deep sand that sparked the original discussion.

[GOF]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

my scores are the same on a slippery or uneven surface as on a firm surface. it's only 6'. Movement speed is a total non-issue. Leaving early and shooting early is the issue.

 

It takes me around 2 seconds, shot-to-shot, whether I'm dryfiring it on cement in the garage, or live-firing in the bay with the deep sand that sparked the original discussion.

Your experiences are not the same as mine. Movement speed is an issue. All things being equal --- hit first two targets, leave cleanly, and smoothly engage the remaining three targets -- the shooter who can switch boxes .5 to 1+ seconds faster than the other shooter-- has a scoring advantage. Often, that faster time is dependent upon nothing more that the footing (trip, fall, drop gun, BAD!) or due to longer legs. Can't change leg length, but can adjust to account for the surface. YMMV.

 

[motosapiens]

Just now, GOF said:

Your experiences are not the same as mine. Movement speed is an issue. All things being equal --- hit first two targets, leave cleanly, and smoothly engage the remaining three targets -- the shooter who can switch boxes .5 to 1+ seconds faster than the other shooter-- has a scoring advantage. Often, that faster time is dependent upon nothing more that the footing (trip, fall, drop gun, BAD!) or due to longer legs. Can't change leg length, but can adjust to account for the surface. YMMV.

 

 

 .5 to 1 second faster is the difference between a healthy athlete and someone who is crippled.

 

or it is the difference between someone who moves efficiently and someone equally athletic who doesn't move efficiently. these differences in efficiency and practice are far far greater than any difference resulting from the surface quality.

 

btw, in general, longer legs are NOT an advantage in short movements. I'm more athletic than most, but my wife who is 11" shorter is significantly quicker from box to box (or in any short movement).

[GOF]

21 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

 .5 to 1 second faster is the difference between a healthy athlete and someone who is crippled.

 

or it is the difference between someone who moves efficiently and someone equally athletic who doesn't move efficiently. these differences in efficiency and practice are far far greater than any difference resulting from the surface quality.

 

btw, in general, longer legs are NOT an advantage in short movements. I'm more athletic than most, but my wife who is 11" shorter is significantly quicker from box to box (or in any short movement).

I have to respectively disagree. I shoot with some long leg people. We hit targets the same. We just move different, even though they are in my same age group. But, we have firm cropped grass & firm footing. Might be different with bad footing.

BTW. I'm not "someone who is crippled" A55647, my classifications are right there on the Steel Challenge website... as Yogi Berra once said "You can look it up".

How 'bout yours?  Might be nice for posters to know the level of expertise you are speaking from. Got a # we can look up?

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, GOF said:

BTW. I'm not "someone who is crippled" A55647, my classifications are right there on the Steel Challenge website... as Yogi Berra once said "You can look it up".

How 'bout yours?  Might be nice for posters to know the level of expertise you are speaking from. Got a # we can look up?

 

I thought my # used to be in my profile, but at any rate, A75553.

 

I didn't say you were crippled, btw. I said .5 to 1 second is a HUGE difference, MUCH larger than can be explained by physiological or athletic differences among healthy individuals. Those kinds of differences are due to learned and practiced efficiency, and pretty much anyone is capable of learning and practicing that level of efficiency.

 

In general, I think pretty much any GM would agree that athletic ability is one of the least significant aspects of practical shooting. I'd say it's pretty much non-existent with a  6' movement. It's all about efficiency. It takes almost everyone very close to the same time to make the movement if they actually try. The differences are in how long people wait to start moving after they fire their last shot in the first box, and how long it takes them to start shooting once they get to the 2nd box.

Edited July 23, 2019 by motosapiens

[Maximis228]

1 hour ago, GOF said:

BTW. I'm not "someone who is crippled" A55647, my classifications are right there on the Steel Challenge website... as Yogi Berra once said "You can look it up".

How 'bout yours?  Might be nice for posters to know the level of expertise you are speaking from. Got a # we can look up? 

 

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, GOF said:

Your experiences are not the same as mine. Movement speed is an issue. All things being equal --- hit first two targets, leave cleanly, and smoothly engage the remaining three targets -- the shooter who can switch boxes .5 to 1+ seconds faster than the other shooter-- has a scoring advantage. Often, that faster time is dependent upon nothing more that the footing (trip, fall, drop gun, BAD!) or due to longer legs. Can't change leg length, but can adjust to account for the surface. YMMV.

 

 

3 hours ago, GOF said:

I have to respectively disagree. I shoot with some long leg people. We hit targets the same. We just move different, even though they are in my same age group. But, we have firm cropped grass & firm footing. Might be different with bad footing.

BTW. I'm not "someone who is crippled" A55647, my classifications are right there on the Steel Challenge website... as Yogi Berra once said "You can look it up".

How 'bout yours?  Might be nice for posters to know the level of expertise you are speaking from. Got a # we can look up?

 

First, my number is A96146.

 

RFRO = %114 GM

PCCO = %109 GM

 

Those are my two major divisions, just picking up RFPO seriously with only one outer limits score I believe at %92, hoping for that G in about a month before next major.

 

 

Next, apparently reading previous posts is not a thing, so I reposted my previous on just this debate.  I will respectfully tell you you’re just wrong. Unless we are talking about an extreme case such as ice or mud so deep you feet become sucked in and you leave without you shoes, outer limits times are not based on surface condition, nor athleticism.  Obviously someone who cannot move 6 feet upright at all is not the discussion, and what the 4 second rule takes care of.  As moto said, and I’ll add to, outer limits is about a fast first shot (like the others in the .6 range), quickly shooting the first 2 plates (I’m looking for a minimum of 1.2 from the timer start), leaning/starting to move while the second shot is breaking, EFFICIENTLY moving to the second box, entering the second box controlled (meaning even on gravel no slippage), breaking the first shot on the far right plate as soon as the left (or right if left handed) foot stabilizes, quickly shooting the rectangle then the stop plate (when I’m doing it well both the last plates hit simultaneous with the difference in distance).  I’m looking for 3.5 or better with a rifle and red dot.  Putting at least three of them together in a match is still a goal.  If you are moving .5 to a full second slower, you re simply doing it incorrectly.  The movement itself is deceptively the least important of the stage when you consider the fact the number one mistake is doing it to fast.  Surface nor “longer legs” (lol, really?) have nothing to do with it.  The footwork is the same.

 

Again, outer limits is the hardest stage out there.  You WILL NEVER be successful at it without significant practice. NEVER.  All the complaining in the world is never going to change that.  The powers that be know this and that’s why these type of complaints are not taken serious. So if you are able bodied to do it, if you want to be successful, you must practice the stage.  The surface will begin to matter less and less, I promise.  Those who are not able bodied have the 4 second option.  I agree it probably should be 3, but I covered that earlier as well.

 

Outer limits is part of the sport we all knowingly challenged ourselves to learn. The top young guys are putting up blazing speeds on all the stages, leaving some of us hungry to catch them.  Their being young has little to do with athleticism and more to do with endurance (being able to do their top times at the end of a hot day), and the mental side of things (including the fact the simply don’t know they are supposed to miss every once in a while!!).  But because they can do it better, on the exact same terrain and conditions, does not give us reason to demand for some type of rule change to even the field.  Frankly, there are some of us who put serious time, money, and effort into these sports and are frustrated sometimes by the complaints of those who do not, but want accommodations that would actually be remedied with the same effort.  Moto is the only one who has mentioned practice, and I gather he is the only one in this thread who has.  If not physically able, do your best.  The best part about steel challenge, especially early on, is competing against your own time.  Once you think you want to be competitive, take an honest look at how competitive you actually can be and be realistic about it.  The top guys are competing on the same terrains as all of us. I can even tell you at the majors and the worlds match, they are surprisingly the same.  There’s no perfect setting.

 

be happy we are out there. Steel challenge is the best thing I have ever put solid effort into. Love it.  Do it the best we can and have fun with it.  Let the numbers be what they are, then try to beat your own next match. That’s the best any of us can do. I’m glad to see so many other people out there. Hope to meet every one of you on the range. Best of luck!

 

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

I thought my # used to be in my profile, but at any rate, A75553.

 

I didn't say you were crippled, btw. I said .5 to 1 second is a HUGE difference, MUCH larger than can be explained by physiological or athletic differences among healthy individuals. Those kinds of differences are due to learned and practiced efficiency, and pretty much anyone is capable of learning and practicing that level of efficiency.

 

In general, I think pretty much any GM would agree that athletic ability is one of the least significant aspects of practical shooting. I'd say it's pretty much non-existent with a  6' movement. It's all about efficiency. It takes almost everyone very close to the same time to make the movement if they actually try. The differences are in how long people wait to start moving after they fire their last shot in the first box, and how long it takes them to start shooting once they get to the 2nd box.

On 7/20/2019 at 11:20 PM, Hammer002 said:

As for the sand, gravel, mud, and other differences in terrain, sure, in harsh conditions there may be a little difference.  Personally, I have learned (and still learning) the better you get at it the less these things matter. The two largest mistakes in outer limits is moving to abruptly, or too fast and crashing the second box. I have shot in the 3’s on gravel. And my feet did not slide, leaving the first box, nor entering the second. In the same match one of my flights WAS a disaster due to sliding on the gravel, because I did it wrong. Outer limits is the hardest stage out there. Maybe that’s why so many people complain about it and want it changed. Reality is, it does separate the field.  It separates the field not only by including agility, timing, and even athleticism, but by who has practiced it enough to do well.  If you can’t physically do it due to impairment, I understand and don’t belittle, but that’s our game.  You chose to enter. If that’s the case, have fun!  Steel Challenge is enjoyable at all ages, skill levels, and physical abilities.

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Maximis228 said:

 

 

I know, right?  Fine to be at that level, but uh, not quite a level to be openly challenging others.  Lol

 

3 hours ago, GOF said:

BTW. I'm not "someone who is crippled" A55647, my classifications are right there on the Steel Challenge website... as Yogi Berra once said "You can look it up".

How 'bout yours?  Might be nice for posters to know the level of expertise you are speaking from. Got a # we can look up?

 

[Gregg K]

I vote to leave the stages the way they are. I'm old, have crushed my spine earlier in life and have a crappy knee. I accept the challenge, I don't want it dumbed down to make me feel better. Practice and training will make me feel better about Outer Limits.

[motosapiens]

Thanks for your insights mr hammer002. You are way less of a dick than I am about explaining this stuff, and a better shooter besides.

 

I honestly wish that physical conditioning and foot speed mattered more because even at 57, I still have plenty of that stuff, but it seems to the evolution everyone goes through if they take the sport seriously and train and practice. At first it seems like the top guys are some kind aliens, able to shoot without even aiming and still hit stuff. Then you realize it's possible to actually see enough to call good hits at those speeds, and you start to think all you have to do is run fast as hell and shoot fast as hell.... then after doing that for a while, and maybe analyzing some video you start to realize that the top guys aren't actually running any faster, they are just leaving sooner and shooting sooner... wasting alot less time.

 

[Hammer002]

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Thanks for your insights mr hammer002. You are way less of a dick than I am about explaining this stuff, and a better shooter besides.

 

I honestly wish that physical conditioning and foot speed mattered more because even at 57, I still have plenty of that stuff, but it seems to the evolution everyone goes through if they take the sport seriously and train and practice. At first it seems like the top guys are some kind aliens, able to shoot without even aiming and still hit stuff. Then you realize it's possible to actually see enough to call good hits at those speeds, and you start to think all you have to do is run fast as hell and shoot fast as hell.... then after doing that for a while, and maybe analyzing some video you start to realize that the top guys aren't actually running any faster, they are just leaving sooner and shooting sooner... wasting alot less time.

 

 

You couldn't be more right.  I have done some training with some champions who happen to live locally of whom I used to shoot with on a regular basis.  The amount of small things the top names are doing go completely unnoticed until you are taught them and therefore are able to see and understand what is going on.  I was shown a small USPSA technique that makes a big difference, then noticed the top shooters all doing it, 13 times in one stage, where everyone else was not.  It made such a difference.  Steel Challenge is very much the same way, however the techniques differ a bit.  Ive been shown many things that show immediate dividends.  Ive discovered several things on my own (many in Outer Limits) that made immediate differences.  Practice is where they are found.  Much of Steel Challenge becomes a mental game which also affects consistency and longevity.  There are specific techniques for that as well.  Then there is HOW to practice.  On and on it goes.  That's why some of these conversations are a bit difficult, because if you don't know, you don't know and some things simply either cant be explained or difficult to without showing.  People want to think outcomes are for reasons that actually have nothing to do with the skill it takes to perform.  Long legs is the best I've heard so far!  Anyway, find a local guy who might show some technique.  I saw one of the posts here is in Florida.  Florida has a great Steel Challenge following and even better a bit north.  Look up Steve Foster in Georgia.  Multi, multi time major champion, 12 division GM, and gives lessons.  Great guy.  Or practice enough to learn some things for yourself.  Another truth is, those complaining about movement and such, would be no more competitive with the stage changed, cause everyone else would be shooting it faster too, specifically Outer Limits, WAY faster from the middle box!! 

[ADulay]

On 7/23/2019 at 3:10 PM, GOF said:

Movement speed is an issue. All things being equal --- hit first two targets, leave cleanly, and smoothly engage the remaining three targets -- the shooter who can switch boxes .5 to 1+ seconds faster than the other shooter-- has a scoring advantage.

Gotta agree with that one.

I shoot with a few guys who are all just about equal in shooting ability on my regular squad but Outer Limits just kills them.

 

The main difference is the time from the second shot to the third shot.   I'm easily 1.5 to 2.5 seconds faster in that place.

 

I did put in a serious amount of practice time taking those first three shots.  Par timed the first two.  Par timed the transition from 2 to 3.  And finally par timed the finish.  Once it was broken down it was obvious where I could pick up some time and that was in the transition from the 2nd shot to the 3rd!

 

Our shooting box is a combination of dirt, mud, gravel and half the time, water.   Equally bad for everybody!

 

AD

[motosapiens]

47 minutes ago, ADulay said:

Gotta agree with that one.

I shoot with a few guys who are all just about equal in shooting ability on my regular squad but Outer Limits just kills them.

 

The main difference is the time from the second shot to the third shot.   I'm easily 1.5 to 2.5 seconds faster in that place.

 

 

Actually, your anecdote disagrees with GOF, and supports hammer's (and my) position.  outer limits doesn't kill them because they are physically 1.5 to 2.5 seconds slower than you in movement. It kills them because you have practiced shooting and moving, and they haven't. Unless they are disabled, they can make the movement within a tenth or two of your movement speed, but practicing the skills makes you more efficient at combining shooting and movement.

[GOF]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

Actually, your anecdote disagrees with GOF, and supports hammer's (and my) position.  outer limits doesn't kill them because they are physically 1.5 to 2.5 seconds slower than you in movement. It kills them because you have practiced shooting and moving, and they haven't. Unless they are disabled, they can make the movement within a tenth or two of your movement speed, but practicing the skills makes you more efficient at combining shooting and movement.

All that super athlete and major practice is well and good. Lemme know how it's working out for ya when ya hit 70. Or, should there be a cutoff age for Steel Challenge?

 

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, GOF said:

All that super athlete and major practice is well and good. Lemme know how it's working out for ya when ya hit 70. Or, should there be a cutoff age for Steel Challenge?

 

I'm only 58 now. At 70, I hope to not be so physically disabled that I am more than tenth slower than a younger person moving 6 feet. That movement takes really very little time. What takes the time is getting started moving after firing the last shot, and waiting forever to fire the next shot upon entering the 2nd box. These things can be addressed with practice. I'll certainly have more time to practice then.

[Racinready300ex]

36 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I'm only 58 now. At 70, I hope to not be so physically disabled that I am more than tenth slower than a younger person moving 6 feet. That movement takes really very little time. What takes the time is getting started moving after firing the last shot, and waiting forever to fire the next shot upon entering the 2nd box. These things can be addressed with practice. I'll certainly have more time to practice then.

 

This is my thinking, 6' is what 3 or 4 steps. You're not running there is not time to get up to speed and slow down. You're going to have to keep the gun up, just lean out a little on the last shot and be ready to break the next shot as soon as you have a foot in the next box. It's more about technique then it is raw speed IMO.

 

If someone  is slow, they probably listen for the hit, then bring the gun down, then start moving. When they get to the next box get planted then bring the gun up and start shooting. Do that and your probably off the pace a couple seconds a string pretty easy, no matter how fast you shoot.

[ADulay]

2 hours ago, GOF said:

All that super athlete and major practice is well and good. Lemme know how it's working out for ya when ya hit 70. Or, should there be a cutoff age for Steel Challenge?

 

I'll be 72 this year.

 

If you are physically able to practice, consider it a blessing.

 

I do.

 

AD

 

[GunBugBit]

Noticeable time gets cut off of Outer Limits with just ONE thing: calling your shot on the second plate.  I watched my fellow squadders at the last match and all of them were waiting to hear/see their hit, then moving.  I KNOW I'm going to hit the plate before I press the trigger and I'm starting my move as I press the trigger.  If I miss, I'm not going back, I'll take the miss penalty.  Not that I'm phenomenal at this stage, just better than I'd be if I didn't call that shot.

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, GunBugBit said:

Noticeable time gets cut off of Outer Limits with just ONE thing: calling your shot on the second plate.  I watched my fellow squadders at the last match and all of them were waiting to hear/see their hit, then moving.  I KNOW I'm going to hit the plate before I press the trigger and I'm starting my move as I press the trigger.  If I miss, I'm not going back, I'll take the miss penalty.  Not that I'm phenomenal at this stage, just better than I'd be if I didn't call that shot.

 

Agreed. Except I’ve been known to do the steel challenge dance on occasion in the past.  Three seconds is a big penalty.  Max Michel handles it well, and is worth noting, if he misses the second plate and starts his step outside the box, he simply raises his outside foot from the ground and reshoots the second plate (big plate) with just the inside foot touching.  Takes practice, but it’s better than stepping back as far as saving what you can after a mistake.

 

Great post and advice

[GunBugBit]

Max knows all the tricks!