Outer Limits - unsafe footing

[GunBugBit]

I'm not as into Steel Challenge as some but I'm making it my main game for the next four months.

 

It's somewhat surprising to see people arguing to eliminate movement on Outer Limits.  I don't know the history but it looks like it was designed to be an otherwise uninteresting stage, with movement thrown in to provide the element that distinguishes it from the other stages.

[GunBugBit]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

Seems like moving smoothing and being ready to shoot as soon as you get in the next box would be more important then foot speed with such a short movement. That and being able to call a hit and move immediately after breaking the last shot in the first box, maybe even be leaning out on that shot.

I agree with you.  The stage is a simple but nice bread and butter drill for these very things.

[xpierrat]

And the beat goes on...   Best solution I have heard is to change to 5 strings like all other stages and shoot one from each box with last two strings your choice... keep the distance the same and of course best 4 out of 5 strings

[shred]

Meh, it becomes just another boring stage then IMO.  The challenge is in calling the leave shot and settling in to the middle box ready to shoot without wasting a ton of time.

 

[edyan]

Relegate it to the past courses like Flying M and replace it with a difficult course of fire that maybe combines two high speed targets (18x24)close and two smaller (10") fairly close together at a good distance and a larger stop plate in the middle to hit fast...almost a smoke and hope that you have to put the brakes on and speed up to finish .. that's just one suggestion...I'm sure there are a lot of creative shooters that can come up with a course with different options on how to  approach it.

 

edyan

A646

[edyan]

just found an old PDF with a lot of courses of fire... there is even one called Total Recall that is similar to the one I thought about.

 

edyan

A646

old.pdf

[Ming the Merciless]

OKAY, I'm the young punk in Super Senior, but leave Outer Limits alone, change the penalty for not moving to appease the small, very vocal minority.

[EarlKeese]

On 6/28/2019 at 4:54 PM, GunBugBit said:

I agree with you.  The stage is a simple but nice bread and butter drill for these very things.

I'd hate to see it go. Can't say I'd want more stages like it, but a little movement adds a welcome challenge and keeps things interesting. 

[cferree]

The OP safety concern is valid.  I spoke with the MD as a match last weekend concerning the boxes on OL.  That club's boxes are all  PVC, and they don't glue the pipe so they can break the boxes down for storage.  This isn't an issue except for the boxes for OL.  He agreed that gluing the boxes for OL was a good idea to prevent the trip hazard that occurs when the box comes apart.  The match the OP walked about is a unique situation.  I understand the need for speed to get everyone done before dark.  Maybe a shovel and a rake left on the bay would let shooters groom the stand trap between competitors.

 

As for eliminating OL, leave the stages alone.  I'm 53 with birth defects in both lower legs and trashed knees from power lifting.  If can shoot it, most can.  As for juniors and new shooters not being able to shoot it, I see them do it, without issue, 2-3 matches a month.  Racinready said it better than I can, the stage adds to the challenge of shooting SCSA,

 

Charles 

A20840

[RickT]

The boxes for the match in the original subject were fine for today's match.  Nothing wrong with sand as long as you're not standing in a hole - easily remedied.  

 

[paranoidtruth]

I think OL is a fun stage, but I'm still 100% in favor of eliminating the movement.  SC is great for beginners, older shooters, etc.  If we want the challenge of movement, USPSA.  I shoot with a guy in a wheelchair, Master class shooter, but gets totally destroyed on OL with the time penalties.  We have one stage that basically hates people in wheelchairs.  Yeah, it might be the minority but if it turns out to be you in that minority, it really sucks.  The amount of the time penalty could be debated forever and nothing would be fair to all shooters.  Just get rid of that part and focus on shooting the plates like every other stage.      

[edyan]

Another aspect of Ol .... Peak Stage Times...the only way there can be a fair way of accessing peak times is for  everyone to be moving on the same surface. Some are shooting on sand, some on gravel, and some on a manicured grass range. The same shooter will have different times on these three surfaces. All the other peak times are based purely on how fast you can hit steel irregardless on  what surface you are standing on, because that is not part of the equation. 

 

I'm in a similar situation as the person paranoid truth is talking about, Although I'm not in a wheelchair, I'm 73 and need a cain to walk  & even with that, I'm still pretty slow.

 

edyan

A646

RFRO -  A

PCCO - A

[motosapiens]

21 hours ago, edyan said:

Another aspect of Ol .... Peak Stage Times...the only way there can be a fair way of accessing peak times is for  everyone to be moving on the same surface. Some are shooting on sand, some on gravel, and some on a manicured grass range. The same shooter will have different times on these three surfaces.

 

The surface doesn't seem to make any measurable difference for me. Maybe if it were a 20' movement it would, but for moving 6', the limiting factors are how quickly I start moving after breaking the last shot, and how quickly I can settle and start shooting at the new position.

[RickT]

There are OL setups where my wife can move safely, primarily with a firm surface and boxes that are made from flat stock, but this situation is very rare.  The 4 seconds will make moving up to M a bit more difficult.  For folks in a wheelchair I think it would be fair to impose the penalty for match results, but eliminate OL from a classification standpoint.  I don't know what's fair for folks in the middle whose mobility is limited; 4 seconds seems a bit severe.

[Hammer002]

Well, somebody has to say it, so I guess I will. Why do you think a sport or anything else should be catered to you?  I certainly don’t forsake anyone’s life shortcomings, but the point becomes similar to arguing to have nascar change all its rules so someone blind can race.  If you aren’t able to involve yourself in a sport due to physical limitations, whether beyond your control or not, why insist IT change so you can be competitive?  There is no way I could play ice hockey, I can’t skate.  Do I insist they change to shoes?  Changing the whole sport?  I could learn, sure, but I certainly can’t play NFL football. I would never be able to get in shape at this age to do that, so do they have to change to flag football?  No. Because I simply cannot be competitive in that sport.  Is it fun to play these games at a level I consider fun?  Absolutely!  All areas discussed here are capable of enjoying steel challenge. Even seriously when comparing against oneself to track improvement and have times to beat, even if a 4 second penalty is in the equation.  You can’t enter yourself into a competition and ask everyone else or the sport itself to change. If you have limitations, enjoy the game at the level you can, but don’t insist on changing things because you want to now somehow be competitive at a sport you knowingly simply aren’t cut out for in the beginning.  I am all about assisting any shooter into the sport. Whether it be a new shooter out there his first time, or the guy in the wheelchair.  But don’t tell me stages have to be thrown out or done away altogether due to conflicting issues of knowing you can’t do everything when you entered and then insisting you should  be allowed to be competitive by handicapping ALL the other competitors to meet your standard. Enjoy it at your level.

 

As for the sand, gravel, mud, and other differences in terrain, sure, in harsh conditions there may be a little difference.  Personally, I have learned (and still learning) the better you get at it the less these things matter. The two largest mistakes in outer limits is moving to abruptly, or too fast and crashing the second box. I have shot in the 3’s on gravel. And my feet did not slide, leaving the first box, nor entering the second. In the same match one of my flights WAS a disaster due to sliding on the gravel, because I did it wrong. Outer limits is the hardest stage out there. Maybe that’s why so many people complain about it and want it changed. Reality is, it does separate the field.  It separates the field not only by including agility, timing, and even athleticism, but by who has practiced it enough to do well.  If you can’t physically do it due to impairment, I understand and don’t belittle, but that’s our game.  You chose to enter. If that’s the case, have fun!  Steel Challenge is enjoyable at all ages, skill levels, and physical abilities.  

 

Hope me I didn’t offend, certainly was not my intention, but this thread was overdue for a dose of reality.   Outer limits may very well go away, but it’s here now. See you all out there.  Best of luck!

Edited July 21, 2019 by Hammer002

[Sarge]

One of our local clubs shoots unofficial steel matches. Last I checked they refuse to go SCSA because they don’t want to have to move at all. They also don’t want to pay fees but that’s less relevant.

[EarlKeese]

On 7/21/2019 at 12:20 AM, Hammer002 said:

Well, somebody has to say it, so I guess I will. Why do you think a sport or anything else should be catered to you?  I certainly don’t forsake anyone’s life shortcomings, but the point becomes similar to arguing to have nascar change all its rules so someone blind can race.  If you aren’t able to involve yourself in a sport due to physical limitations, whether beyond your control or not, why insist IT change so you can be competitive?  There is no way I could play ice hockey, I can’t skate.  Do I insist they change to shoes?  Changing the whole sport?  I could learn, sure, but I certainly can’t play NFL football. I would never be able to get in shape at this age to do that, so do they have to change to flag football?  No. Because I simply cannot be competitive in that sport.  Is it fun to play these games at a level I consider fun?  Absolutely!  All areas discussed here are capable of enjoying steel challenge. Even seriously when comparing against oneself to track improvement and have times to beat, even if a 4 second penalty is in the equation.  You can’t enter yourself into a competition and ask everyone else or the sport itself to change. If you have limitations, enjoy the game at the level you can, but don’t insist on changing things because you want to now somehow be competitive at a sport you knowingly simply aren’t cut out for in the beginning.  I am all about assisting any shooter into the sport. Whether it be a new shooter out there his first time, or the guy in the wheelchair.  But don’t tell me stages have to be thrown out or done away altogether due to conflicting issues of knowing you can’t do everything when you entered and then insisting you should  be allowed to be competitive by handicapping ALL the other competitors to meet your standard. Enjoy it at your level.

 

As for the sand, gravel, mud, and other differences in terrain, sure, in harsh conditions there may be a little difference.  Personally, I have learned (and still learning) the better you get at it the less these things matter. The two largest mistakes in outer limits is moving to abruptly, or too fast and crashing the second box. I have shot in the 3’s on gravel. And my feet did not slide, leaving the first box, nor entering the second. In the same match one of my flights WAS a disaster due to sliding on the gravel, because I did it wrong. Outer limits is the hardest stage out there. Maybe that’s why so many people complain about it and want it changed. Reality is, it does separate the field.  It separates the field not only by including agility, timing, and even athleticism, but by who has practiced it enough to do well.  If you can’t physically do it due to impairment, I understand and don’t belittle, but that’s our game.  You chose to enter. If that’s the case, have fun!  Steel Challenge is enjoyable at all ages, skill levels, and physical abilities.  

 

Hope me I didn’t offend, certainly was not my intention, but this thread was overdue for a dose of reality.   Outer limits may very well go away, but it’s here now. See you all out there.  Best of luck!

Well said!

[edyan]

I think if they went to a 3sec penalty instead of 4sec the conversation would be over.... I could still be competitive with that...just have to do really good on the rest of the stages...the only ones that might benefit with those times are C & D shooters... most B and up are usually under 3sec.

[rowdyb]

Every surface and footing on a range is unsafe. Every. So I see no need for any exceptions. I'd rather see the stage fall from favor to be abandoned than have it changed.

 

I can foresee a steel challenge where these is no movement at all on the clock, and that wouldn't break my heart totally.

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Every surface and footing on a range is unsafe. Every. So I see no need for any exceptions. I'd rather see the stage fall from favor to be abandoned than have it changed.

 

I can foresee a steel challenge where these is no movement at all on the clock, and that wouldn't break my heart totally.

 

This exactly.

 

3 hours ago, edyan said:

I think if they went to a 3sec penalty instead of 4sec the conversation would be over.... I could still be competitive with that...just have to do really good on the rest of the stages...the only ones that might benefit with those times are C & D shooters... most B and up are usually under 3sec.

 

For what it’s worth, I believe it was Zack who argued and pushed for exactly that and was overridden by higher powers in the USPSA.   I think part of it was gaming or giving too much of an advantage. Not to mention things in my post above. I would have to do the math again, but I think being able to shoot the stage from the center in under 2 seconds (which is quite easy to do) puts you at or close to master depending on the division we are talking about.  We’ll see what comes of the stage in the future, but for now, it’s here, and not likely to change.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Hammer002

[motosapiens]

On 7/20/2019 at 10:20 PM, Hammer002 said:

Well, somebody has to say it, so I guess I will. Why do you think a sport or anything else should be catered to you?  I certainly don’t forsake anyone’s life shortcomings, but the point becomes similar to arguing to have nascar change all its rules so someone blind can race.  If you aren’t able to involve yourself in a sport due to physical limitations, whether beyond your control or not, why insist IT change so you can be competitive?  There is no way I could play ice hockey, I can’t skate.  Do I insist they change to shoes?  Changing the whole sport?  I could learn, sure, but I certainly can’t play NFL football. I would never be able to get in shape at this age to do that, so do they have to change to flag football?  No. Because I simply cannot be competitive in that sport.  Is it fun to play these games at a level I consider fun?  Absolutely!  All areas discussed here are capable of enjoying steel challenge. Even seriously when comparing against oneself to track improvement and have times to beat, even if a 4 second penalty is in the equation.  You can’t enter yourself into a competition and ask everyone else or the sport itself to change. If you have limitations, enjoy the game at the level you can, but don’t insist on changing things because you want to now somehow be competitive at a sport you knowingly simply aren’t cut out for in the beginning.  I am all about assisting any shooter into the sport. Whether it be a new shooter out there his first time, or the guy in the wheelchair.  But don’t tell me stages have to be thrown out or done away altogether due to conflicting issues of knowing you can’t do everything when you entered and then insisting you should  be allowed to be competitive by handicapping ALL the other competitors to meet your standard. Enjoy it at your level.

 

As for the sand, gravel, mud, and other differences in terrain, sure, in harsh conditions there may be a little difference.  Personally, I have learned (and still learning) the better you get at it the less these things matter. The two largest mistakes in outer limits is moving to abruptly, or too fast and crashing the second box. I have shot in the 3’s on gravel. And my feet did not slide, leaving the first box, nor entering the second. In the same match one of my flights WAS a disaster due to sliding on the gravel, because I did it wrong. Outer limits is the hardest stage out there. Maybe that’s why so many people complain about it and want it changed. Reality is, it does separate the field.  It separates the field not only by including agility, timing, and even athleticism, but by who has practiced it enough to do well.  If you can’t physically do it due to impairment, I understand and don’t belittle, but that’s our game.  You chose to enter. If that’s the case, have fun!  Steel Challenge is enjoyable at all ages, skill levels, and physical abilities.  

 

Hope me I didn’t offend, certainly was not my intention, but this thread was overdue for a dose of reality.   Outer limits may very well go away, but it’s here now. See you all out there.  Best of luck!

 

but there are competitors who are literally world class in steel *except* for the one stage with movement. I personally like outer limits, but I'm not sure that one stage adds that much to the experience. I get all the movement i need in USPSA.

[Hammer002]

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

but there are competitors who are literally world class in steel *except* for the one stage with movement. I personally like outer limits, but I'm not sure that one stage adds that much to the experience. I get all the movement i need in USPSA.

 

Agree.  And agree.  Its just that it is part of the game at least for now and the points remain that no one should impose themselves on a sport with expectations to meet their shortcomings knowing the game going in.  If their were people who gained a level of competition and Outer Limits came along afterward, now making them unable to compete at that classification, thats a different story, but everyone got into the sport knowing the stages.  The next thing is 45 yards is too far for me to see, shorten Speed Option.  My shoulders dont rotate, I need to be able to shoot production from low ready.  Pendulum is to hard, throw it out.  I do agree their are people who shoot well with movement limitations.  And I respect them.  But thats their limit.  I have limits keeping me from the top of the leaderboard as well.  I cant see as fast as Grant Kunkel or Cole Busch, thats my limitation and its a physical one.  We all have limits, shoot within them and rise to your own potential. 

 

Again, best of luck.

[Ming the Merciless]

Well, Steel Challenge already has categories for Juniors, Seniors, Super Seniors, Ladies, Law Enforcement, and Military.  Why not add Wheelchair for those in wheelchairs who would shoot from the middle position of Outer Limits with no penalty (?), Handicapped for those who need assistance walking (canes, etc...) who would shoot Outer Limits from the middle position with a 3 second penalty (?).  The times are just a suggestion.

[Ming the Merciless]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

but there are competitors who are literally world class in steel *except* for the one stage with movement. I personally like outer limits, but I'm not sure that one stage adds that much to the experience. I get all the movement i need in USPSA.

 

That's Okay for you, but not everyone that shoots Steel Challenge shoots USPSA.

[Hammer002]

26 minutes ago, Ming the Merciless said:

Well, Steel Challenge already has categories for Juniors, Seniors, Super Seniors, Ladies, Law Enforcement, and Military.  Why not add Wheelchair for those in wheelchairs who would shoot from the middle position of Outer Limits with no penalty (?), Handicapped for those who need assistance walking (canes, etc...) who would shoot Outer Limits from the middle position with a 3 second penalty (?).  The times are just a suggestion.

 

Those "categories" dont compete with different standards.  They are recognized for award purposes, but still shoot the same stages under the same peak times.

 

26 minutes ago, Ming the Merciless said:

 

That's Okay for you, but not everyone that shoots Steel Challenge shoots USPSA.

 

I dont think you read what you copied, cause that was kinda his point.