Outer Limits - unsafe footing

[bigboy69]

The initial movement and getting back on target are the most critical, I think.  If you watch some of the pros they are on target with one foot in the box and the other in the air and they are pulling the trigger. 

[bigboy69]

On 7/23/2019 at 11:18 AM, edyan said:

The format is not unchangeable...if you look at the history of SC there are courses of fire that were once part of the match that are no longer part of the current program... Flying M for example and others.

 

edyan A646

RFRO-A

PCCO-A

 

Steel Challenge Courses.pdf 143.5 kB · 0 downloads

Yes isnt there like 12 main courses of fire but they have been using thses 8.

[RickT]

I started this thread with an Outer Limits question relating to a specific, one-time situation that was potentially unsafe.  As does happen four pages later the discussion as morphed, but the points made regarding elimination of movement, etc make for interesting reading.  I have no issue with the movement and have experienced the usual range of footing and box construction.

 

I'd raise the following question relevant to those who really can't move either by virtue of total disability or a genuine safety issue as such do exist.  Where did the 4 seconds come from?   Someone shooting RFPO or RFRO from the center box has to shooting 1.1 second strings to achieve an A classification for that stage.  Let's say the individual can shoot an S&H A time (2.3 seconds) on center box OL.  They would have to make up 3.6 seconds elsewhere to achieve A in the remaining, about .13 seconds per string in the other 7 stages, not unreasonable as a penalty to prevent sandbagging, but pretty steep as an adjustment for a handicap IMO.

[edyan]

Exactly...you have to shoot high A and possibly some M scores for the rest of the match to have an A class score.

 

[edyan]

Last Sunday's local match...4 standard & 1 outlaw stage... 48 shooters, I came in 9th overall. Here is what happens:

 

Showdown - 3rd overall

Roundabout - 3rd overall

Speed Option - 4th overall

Outlaw stage - 2nd overall

Outer Limits - 16th overall

 

The range isn't large enough for all 8 stages but when they don"t have OL I often end up near the top...when I shoot all 8 stages I do better because of the 3 extra stages to  make up some time...I love the sport but those 4 sec per stage penalties are tough... I think a standard 3 sec would be more equitable...

 

 

 

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, edyan said:

Last Sunday's local match...4 standard & 1 outlaw stage... 48 shooters, I came in 9th overall. Here is what happens:

 

Showdown - 3rd overall

Roundabout - 3rd overall

Speed Option - 4th overall

Outlaw stage - 2nd overall

Outer Limits - 16th overall

 

The range isn't large enough for all 8 stages but when they don"t have OL I often end up near the top...when I shoot all 8 stages I do better because of the 3 extra stages to  make up some time...I love the sport but those 4 sec per stage penalties are tough... I think a standard 3 sec would be more equitable...

 

 

 

 

First, this is how it goes for just about everyone who has not mastered Outer Limits.  Most of the field has not.  Most don't practice it.  Most do it wrong.  Most shooters do exactly as displayed, high scores except for Outer Limits, especially compared to peak times.

 

Second, you have to get over whining about the current penalty for no movement.  It has to be the way it is for many reasons.  No one likes it.  Get rid of the stage?  Maybe.  A respectable opinion.  However, its a part of the game now.  To continuously complain about it is like wanting to play baseball, but you cant hit.  Sure, I can catch well, I can run faster than anyone else, I have a great attitude, but I cant hit.  So expect the game to cater to you??  Its like wanting to play basketball, but cant dribble.  I can shoot from anywhere on the court 100%, but I cant dribble.  I cant play basketball.  Compete at your level.  If you cant move, sorry for your condition, but it doesn't mean an entire sport should cater to you.  If a vote came out today to get rid of Outer Limits, I would vote to do it for people just such as yourself, cause I do support everyone, but to continuously complain about an aspect of the game you knowingly decided to play and then expect it to change for you is just wrong.  Glad you can compete.  Sorry you cant be competitive.  If you feel the need to be competitive at something, find something you can knowingly from the start be competitive at.  In Steel Challenge, compete against yourself, or do it cause you like it.

[Andyk]

I agree with doing away with outer limits.  I shot it last yesterday, last stage,  in 97 degree heat.  By the second gun, I thought about DNFing.  I'm surprised there have no injuries/accidents.  Making people move fast with a gun when they aren't used to it is dangerous.  Add in fatigue and its worse.  At 60 years old, that one stage makes me cringe and rethink SC.

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Andyk said:

I agree with doing away with outer limits.  Valid opinion 

I shot it last yesterday, last stage,  in 97 degree heat.  So have many of us.  Most of us.  All of us?  Did you not shoot the others in the same weather?  Not a valid reason to get rid of a stage. 

By the second gun, I thought about DNFing.  That's an option.  Take it if that's what you need.  To compete in a match you cannot handle or finish is irresponsibility on YOUR part.  Your personal struggle, not a valid reason to get rid of a stage.

I'm surprised there have no injuries/accidents.  None that I have ever heard of, doesn't mean it hasn't, but also doesn't seem as likely as you attempt to make it sound.  Accidents can occur in many things we don't stop doing.  If we did we wouldn't be able to drive.  And again, I don't know of many injuries inside the shooting world.  Not a valid reason to get rid of a stage. 

Making people move fast with a gun when they aren't used to it is dangerous. No one is MAKING ANYONE do ANYTHING.  Not to mention USPSA/IPSC have been around how long doing the same on a far larger scale?  Again, if YOU are showing up with a gun you "aren't used to," that's a serious bit of irresponsibility on YOUR part!  No one is going to hold your hand to shoot.  YOU have the responsibility to be comfortable with ANY gun you own, let alone COMPETE WITH!!!  Your or anyone else's gun incompetence is not a valid reason to get rid of a stage.

Add in fatigue and its worse.  Fatigue is based on YOUR personal limitations.  All sports have an element of fatigue affecting athletes, even something such as darts.  Your personal fatigue level is not a valid reason to get rid of a stage.

At 60 years old Only you are responsible for judging your personal limits.  If you feel your age is an issue, its your decision and responsibility to properly judge it.  I shoot with 60 year olds all the time.  And older.  Even in USPSA.  Have yet to hear them complain.  Your age is not a valid reason to get rid of a stage.

that one stage Indeed, it is ONE stage.  Not a valid reason to get rid of it.

makes me cringe and rethink SC.  Quite frankly, possibly you should.  Also, not a valid reason to get rid of a stage.

 

Its ok not to agree with the post right above yours, but possibly should have read it.  Or need to again.  Stop whining.  YOU chose the sport.  Just like your other post complaining about peak times, stop whining about how everything should cater to you.  Is the snowflake generation invading the baby boomer generation?  If you can compete, great!  Do it.  If you cant, find something you can do.  Stop trying to use "its dangerous" as an excuse to nanny and kid glove the whole world.  Guns are dangerous.  GUNS WERE MEANT TO BE DANGEROUS.  We choose to shoot them as competition.  CHOOSE.  If you simply cant do it, or feel you cant, don't.  But don't demand everyone else cater and change to your low standards.  Steel Challenge, nor any other shooting sport I know of was meant to be a handicap/elderly/limited function format.  Just because there is limited movement does not mean it was thought up for the disabled.  Its a shooting sport.  If you can compete, even if disabled, wonderful.  If you cant, stop insisting the world change for you.  If it does go, great, but it is the sport as it is now.  If there is a good reason to get rid of it, its not in your post. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Hammer002

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Andyk said:

Making people move fast with a gun when they aren't used to it is dangerous.  

 wait, wut? who is  'making you move fast'?

 

why do you think you have to ' move fast' to do well at outer limits?

 

Why are you competing at something requiring 6 feet of movement if you can't move 6 feet without fatigue?

 

fwiw, I personally think outer limits should be eliminated simply to make the sport more accessible to the disabled, since it is the ONLY stage where someone in a wheelchair isn't on even ground with the able-bodied. I support that even tho I personally do just fine at outer limits and can move 6' without undue fatigue.

Edited September 16, 2019 by motosapiens

[Andyk]

So expressing opinions is whining?  Guess what a-hat, you just expressed one also so take your own advice.  I didn't demand anything, just stated my feelings.  Your free to not read read it also or are you the self appointed post police?

[Andyk]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 wait, wut? who is  'making you move fast'?

 

why do you think you have to ' move fast' to do well at outer limits?

 

Why are you competing at something requiring 6 feet of movement if you can't move 6 feet without fatigue?

 

fwiw, I personally think outer limits should be eliminated simply to make the sport more accessible to the disabled, since it is the ONLY stage where someone in a wheelchair isn't on even ground with the able-bodied. I support that even tho I personally do just fine at outer limits and can move 6' without undue fatigue.

Not the fatigue from outer limits, but worn out from the two hour drive, and 7 (14 actually, 2guns) stages in 97 deg. heat with humidity making it fell like 105 or so.  The CMP range is hot, it holds the heat in.  Trust me I was not the only person worn out.  

[Hammer002]

9 minutes ago, Andyk said:

So expressing opinions is whining?  Guess what a-hat, you just expressed one also so take your own advice.  I didn't demand anything, just stated my feelings.  Your free to not read read it also or are you the self appointed post police?

 

I gave you credit for the valid opinion.  Again, maybe read.  But you backed it with nothing but whining.  And you are right, but not to say I cant.  I AM free to read, just as I am free to read and point out silliness when I see it.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

1 minute ago, Andyk said:

Not the fatigue from outer limits, but worn out from the two hour drive, and 7 (14 actually, 2guns) stages in 97 deg. heat with humidity making it fell like 105 or so.  The CMP range is hot, it holds the heat in.  Trust me I was not the only person worn out.  

 

So what??  What does that have to do with Outer Limits?  I shot all day in the same circumstances.  Even helped tear down.

[motosapiens]

Just now, Andyk said:

Not the fatigue from outer limits, but worn out from the two hour drive, and 7 (14 actually, 2guns) stages in 97 deg. heat with humidity making it fell like 105 or so.  The CMP range is hot, it holds the heat in.  Trust me I was not the only person worn out.  

oh, I thought you were complaining about outer limits, not hot weather at matches. My bad....

[Andyk]

Wrong thread

Edited September 16, 2019 by Andyk

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Andyk said:

Not the fatigue from outer limits, but worn out from the two hour drive, and 7 (14 actually, 2guns) stages in 97 deg. heat with humidity making it fell like 105 or so.  The CMP range is hot, it holds the heat in.  Trust me I was not the only person worn out.  

 

You probably could of just shot 1 gun. Or skip matches during the really hot months at clubs you know to be so hot. Or stay in a hotel so you don't have to drive so much in one stretch. Or even stick to matches closer to home.

 

Or try to change the game to limit everyone you what you can do.

[Hammer002]

5 minutes ago, Andyk said:

Not the fatigue from outer limits, but worn out from the two hour drive, and 7 (14 actually, 2guns) stages in 97 deg. heat with humidity making it fell like 105 or so.  The CMP range is hot, it holds the heat in.  Trust me I was not the only person worn out.  

 

Wait wait wait, if you shot at CMP then you shot the Alabama State match.  I LEVEL 2 match!  And you aren't comfortable with your guns or they are new to you?? Who is shooting a level 2 match with guns they are unfamiliar with??

[Andyk]

I seriously doubt anyone is going to change anything based on my opinion but read zachs response above.  I'm not the only one who doesn't love OL.

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, Andyk said:

I seriously doubt anyone is going to change anything based on my opinion but read zachs response above.  I'm not the only one who doesn't love OL.

 

It's a hard stage, I'm sure lots of people don't want to put in the work to learn how to do it well. That's not a surprise to me.

[Andyk]

5 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Wait wait wait, if you shot at CMP then you shot the Alabama State match.  I LEVEL 2 match!  And you aren't comfortable with your guns or they are new to you?? Who is shooting a level 2 match with guns they are unfamiliar with??

Where did I say that.  Been shooting both guns for several years.  But I do know someone who shot a new gun and won his class.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Andyk

[Hammer002]

2 hours ago, Andyk said:

Making people move fast with a gun when they aren't used to it is dangerous.

 

Just now, Andyk said:

Where did I say that.  Been shooting both guns for several years.

 

Right here.  lol

[Andyk]

Aren't used to moving with a gun is what I meant.  Everyone does not shoot USPSA.  I don't have a problem with it, never been called for anything on outer limits.  Never tripped or fallen or had foot faults or 180 issues.  But plenty have.

[Hammer002]

20 minutes ago, Andyk said:

Aren't used to moving with a gun is what I meant.  Everyone does not shoot USPSA.  I don't have a problem with it, never been called for anything on outer limits.  Never tripped or fallen or had foot faults or 180 issues.  But plenty have.

 

Who??  When??  Come on, Mr Kish, you are making it up as you go along.

 

You're a B level shooter who shot a 20.58 RFRO time and a 18.41 PCCO time.  Most of the runs were in the 5.5 second area.  The heavier PCCO seemed slower, but still not bad for your classification under all those conditions.  That's actually not all that bad!  I'm a GM and I'm praying for anything under 4 at a match.  I'd actually say you might be being a bit hard on yourself.  Not only that, but minus a miss and an apparent one bad flight of 9.99, which I would guess to be your first as my first is usually the roughest, you were very consistent with your times.  Those are NOT bad times, especially if as tired and in the weather all day as you said.  Your personal best in RFRO Outer Limits is 17.35, yes 3 seconds the wrong direction, but again what to expect under those conditions, of which everyone is shooting.  Your PCCO personal best is 16.8, which is 1.61 of what you shot in the match.  I'd say you actually did quite well under those circumstances.  I can tell you I have personally done worse under less!

 

Listen, all I'm saying is to get rid of Outer Limits we need actual reasons.  You nor I can point to anyone who has even fallen, let alone caused injury to self or others.  The stage has been successfully shot millions of times.  I think, like most, you just don't care for it.  Now that is a valid reason.  Just say that, I guess.  I think you shot it better than you give yourself credit.  In that weather, under that type of match stress, at the end of the day?  You shot well.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Hammer002

[Andyk]

I didn't say i couldnt do it.  But as been said, it is unfair to some.  My daughter who since you looked was right above me in pcc shot the worlds in a boot.  Took a 4 second per string penalty rather than hurt her foot further or worse.  That 12 seconds cost her quite a few spots.  But people who have permanent infirments have to take that all the time.

 

That 9.99 is cause I didn't call the first shot on the far plate and took off and had to go back and get it.  I hardly ever miss those big plates but did and paid for it.  Probably cost me the second or so I need for A.  

[Hammer002]

16 minutes ago, Andyk said:

I didn't say i couldnt do it.  But as been said, it is unfair to some.  My daughter who since you looked was right above me in pcc shot the worlds in a boot.  Took a 4 second per string penalty rather than hurt her foot further or worse.  That 12 seconds cost her quite a few spots.  But people who have permanent infirments have to take that all the time.

 

That 9.99 is cause I didn't call the first shot on the far plate and took off and had to go back and get it.  I hardly ever miss those big plates but did and paid for it.  Probably cost me the second or so I need for A.  

 

I actually agree with the whole first paragraph, its just simply not a reason to get rid of it.  If you read the thread, I have said I would vote to get rid of it.  And I did see your daughter's scores, pretty sure she beat you with the RFPO.  Means somebody is teaching her well.