Barcode1337 Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 In the Open forum, there was a thread about the technology, if it's peaked/plateaued, and what may be next. So purely from a curiosity standpoint, I was wondering if it was legal to shoot pistols with magazines forward the trigger in Open division. Something like the PAK9, SA VZ 61 Scorpion, or other similar shorty pistol caliber things. The only prohibiting rule I can find in my perusal is 5.1.10, which prohibits stocks or foregrips of any kind. Seems to me that would suggest you only need to make sure you hold it like a traditional pistol, and not grasp forward the magazine or use the magazine as a foregrip. I tried searching a little and came up with nothing. Besides Desert Eagles and 500 S&W revolvers or whatever, I don't see evidence of too many odd firearms used in USPSA. Must be because folks are much more concerned about being competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) Because it's a competition, not an organized fun shoot. Edited May 28, 2019 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 The main setback I can think of would be holsters. An AR pistol (9mm) would be legal, but I imagine legal holsters are few and far between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 There is no rule prohibiting it. Like HCH says you could use a braced PCC in a holster and still comply with the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcode1337 Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 8 hours ago, rowdyb said: Because it's a competition, not an organized fun shoot. Figured that was the main cause. While I take the sport seriously and try to do my best, especially due to the limited number of matches near me, I've always had a penchant for the absurd in competitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 44 minutes ago, Barcode1337 said: I've always had a penchant for the absurd in competitions. Guess that's why I like to shoot USPSA - kind of ABSURD for a 74 year old, deaf, fat guy with two left hands to compete at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 You could rock a 96 mauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 I understand. Everyone has their own definition of fun at the match and I'm glad there is more than one way to fulfill it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 hours ago, RJH said: You could rock a 96 mauser Early days, I saw a gunzine article with pictures of the guns in use. One was a C96 with the "broom handle" wrapped in bandage and tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcode1337 Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 3 hours ago, RJH said: You could rock a 96 mauser I would love to get my hands on a 96 mauser. I get my fill of absurd at our club's IDPA matches/side matches. I've run my 303 Enfield during the rifle side matches a few times. When I finish building my PPS43 and Sten I may run them in PCC as well. As I said, I try to take USPSA more seriously, not that I'm any good. Since NickBlasta suggests braces are legal - have people experimented with braces on pistols in USPSA? Again, find it hard to imagine it would provide any meaningful, if any, gains in performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 4 hours ago, Barcode1337 said: Figured that was the main cause. While I take the sport seriously and try to do my best, especially due to the limited number of matches near me, I've always had a penchant for the absurd in competitions. You should just shoot revolver then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Since NickBlasta suggests braces are legal - have people experimented with braces on pistols in USPSA? Again, find it hard to imagine it would provide any meaningful, if any, gains in performance.I don't see where braces are legal.They are banned in all the handgun divisions. 5.1.10 reads: "Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited." Regardless of ATF classification, they are a kind of stock.They're not allowed in PCC, Appendix 8 specifies: " Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezra650 Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 3 hours ago, motosapiens said: You should just shoot revolver then. This is the comment of the day. Gave me a good chuckle. I wish we could run pistol braces. A 10 or 12" PCC would be awesome. Especially in steel challenge. But I see the reasons why they are not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 27 minutes ago, ezra650 said: This is the comment of the day. Gave me a good chuckle. I wish we could run pistol braces. A 10 or 12" PCC would be awesome. Especially in steel challenge. But I see the reasons why they are not allowed. you can have a 10 or 12" PCC it just has to be a rifle not a pistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezra650 Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: you can have a 10 or 12" PCC it just has to be a rifle not a pistol Yeah, but screw the NFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 1 hour ago, PatJones said: I don't see where braces are legal. They are banned in all the handgun divisions. 5.1.10 reads: "Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited." Regardless of ATF classification, they are a kind of stock. They're not allowed in PCC, Appendix 8 specifies: " Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed" I’m gonna say a brace IS legal. I would allow venture to say the reason they are not allowed in PCC is twofold: 1. ATF is wishy-washy on the subject. 2. PCC is carbine not “braced AR Pistol” splitting hairs based on technicalities, I know, but that is my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 5 hours ago, motosapiens said: You should just shoot revolver then. or single stack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 hours ago, PatJones said: I don't see where braces are legal. They are banned in all the handgun divisions. 5.1.10 reads: "Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited." Regardless of ATF classification, they are a kind of stock. They're not allowed in PCC, Appendix 8 specifies: " Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed" They aren't a stock. That's why they are a brace and not a stock for the PCC gear rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcode1337 Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 5 hours ago, motosapiens said: You should just shoot revolver then. 39 minutes ago, RJH said: or single stack After I accomplish something in Open and/or acquire firearms for those divisions, I would totally shoot both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcode1337 Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 1 hour ago, HCH said: I’m gonna say a brace IS legal. I would allow venture to say the reason they are not allowed in PCC is twofold: 1. ATF is wishy-washy on the subject. 2. PCC is carbine not “braced AR Pistol” splitting hairs based on technicalities, I know, but that is my opinion. That was my interpretation on that bit as well. Really, interpretation could be pretty broad for both the stock and foregrip phrasing. I was pretty intrigued that braces weren't explicitly banned in the rules. Having never used one as an actual arm brace, though, I have no idea if they actually do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Interesting thought project. 9mm major AR pistol with brace and maybe use a magwell grip if you can get by with the magwell not getting defined as a foregrip. In CA, vertical fore grips on a semi-auto rifle turns it into a banned assault weapon and magwells are not considered vertical foregrips in CA. So maybe a magwell grip would be legal for OPEN. If you got by the holster issue, a 9mm major blowback "pistol" probably wouldn't last long and I heard 9 major in PCC's aren't fun to shoot anyway. That leaves you with a 9mm minor blowback "pistol" in a holster. It's better to stick with PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 7 hours ago, motosapiens said: You should just shoot revolver then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 With the 2011 platform capacity is controlled by the length of the magazine and the dimensions of the grip. If a magazine external of the grip is allowed, either in front of the trigger guard, or along the top like the P90, the length stays the same but width dimension could increase. A magazine like the SureFire AR mag or the old Spectre SMG would be possible. For that matter, a simple drum would likely make length. There are legit reasons why this could be an option. That said, the weight of existing systems would likely be more detrimental than the ability to skip a reload or two per match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, gdboytyler said: Interesting thought project. 9mm major AR pistol with brace and maybe use a magwell grip if you can get by with the magwell not getting defined as a foregrip. In CA, vertical fore grips on a semi-auto rifle turns it into a banned assault weapon and magwells are not considered vertical foregrips in CA. So maybe a magwell grip would be legal for OPEN. If you got by the holster issue, a 9mm major blowback "pistol" probably wouldn't last long and I heard 9 major in PCC's aren't fun to shoot anyway. That leaves you with a 9mm minor blowback "pistol" in a holster. It's better to stick with PCC. You could shoot Limited with a .40 upper with irons on it. A handguard or magwell is not a foregrip. A foregrip is a foregrip. Edited May 29, 2019 by NickBlasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 The fact a brace isn't considered a 'stock' by ATF doesn't mean your local RM won't decide that 'of any kind' language applies to your brace as well, declare it one and there you are in the parking lot with nowhere to shoot. Quote 5.1.10 Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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