Holding mags in the hand

[CoyoteMW]

In a stage where all mags must come from a barrel or table, the shooter grabs 1 or 2 extra mags and holds them in his weak hand while shooting (two handed), reloading as necessary as he moves through the stage.

 

i had been told that a shooter cannot carry mags in the hands while shooting a stage, but cannot find it in the rulebook. No one seemed to mind when this happened today. What is the rule?

[2Xalpha]

I think this is a misunderstanding. The IPSC rules clearly state that:

 

5.2.4.1 [Handgun] When a Competitor Ready Condition requires that magazines or speed loaders be placed on a table or similar, the competitor may retrieve and carry those items anywhere on their person after the Start Signal, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional equipment placement rules.

 

The error might originate from another rule using some of the same words as your intro.

 

8.2.3 [Handgun] A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the "Standby" command and before the Start Signal (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

8.2.3 [Rifle and Shotgun] A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a magazine, loading device or ammunition, other than a magazine fitted to the firearm, after the "Standby" command and before the Start Signal (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms)

 

 

[NickBlasta]

5.2.4.2    When stipulations in the Written Stage Briefing require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is allowed.  Further, spare ammunition,magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12, as long as they remain in the hand.  Magazines may never be held or carried in the mouth for Divisions with equipment position restrictions specified in Appendix D, Item 12.

[PatJones]

In a stage where all mags must come from a barrel or table, the shooter grabs 1 or 2 extra mags and holds them in his weak hand while shooting (two handed), reloading as necessary as he moves through the stage.
 
i had been told that a shooter cannot carry mags in the hands while shooting a stage, but cannot find it in the rulebook. No one seemed to mind when this happened today. What is the rule?

USPSA or IPSC rules?

[2Xalpha]

12 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

5.2.4.2    [...] Magazines may never be held or carried in the mouth for Divisions with equipment position restrictions specified in Appendix D, Item 12.

 

Why do USPSA have to specify a rule about not being allowed to carry magazine(s) in the mouth? And why does it not apply to Open, Revolver, Limited-10 and Limited? Is it only okay if you wear pink?? I am rolling on the floor right now.. 

 

[ChuckS]

4 minutes ago, 2Xalpha said:

 

Why do USPSA have to specify a rule about not being allowed to carry magazine(s) in the mouth? And why does it not apply to Open, Revolver, Limited-10 and Limited? Is it only okay if you wear pink?? I am rolling on the floor right now.. 

 

Because the mouth is not behind the hip bones. It is just like using a front pocket during a COF, just yucky-er...

[rustychev]

There was a stage at the Iowa sectional last year that started all mags on table and the wsb stated that you could not stow mags after the start.  I wish I had remembered 5.2.4.2 I asked the CRO on the stage if carrying one in the had was stowed and he said yes and would be a per shot fired if I did it.  

[NickBlasta]

3 hours ago, 2Xalpha said:

 

Why do USPSA have to specify a rule about not being allowed to carry magazine(s) in the mouth? And why does it not apply to Open, Revolver, Limited-10 and Limited? Is it only okay if you wear pink?? I am rolling on the floor right now.. 

 

 

It's more like a clarification because the old rule was not clear enough, saying that basically you could carry a magazine and not get bumped to open as long as it remained in your hand. So it takes care of people asking if they can carry it in their teeth or under their arm or whatever. lol

[NickBlasta]

1 hour ago, rustychev said:

There was a stage at the Iowa sectional last year that started all mags on table and the wsb stated that you could not stow mags after the start.  I wish I had remembered 5.2.4.2 I asked the CRO on the stage if carrying one in the had was stowed and he said yes and would be a per shot fired if I did it.  

 

Sucks, but you were specifically allowed by the rulebook. Knowing your rules helps you in the match.

[rustychev]

9 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Sucks, but you were specifically allowed by the rulebook. Knowing your rules helps you in the match.

Yep in the end of that day it probably did not make that much of a difference to my score but both I and the CRO should have known the rules better.

 

 

[motosapiens]

16 hours ago, ChuckS said:

Because the mouth is not behind the hip bones. It is just like using a front pocket during a COF, just yucky-er...

 

hmm, so you can put mags in your butt tho, in all divisions.... 

[blueorison]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

hmm, so you can put mags in your butt tho, in all divisions.... 

 

This is pure gold.

 

I've definitely stowed mags in my mouth because the stage only required 1 reload, and it was not a USPSA match. The rules said "abandoned means abandoned", so I said, "fine". I did my round count and on one of the last stages, abandoned a mag on the ground and retrieved it after the match was over from the RO. He was laughing; "Did you know you dropped the mag?" Course I did  it was calculated.

[Thomas H]

On 2/24/2019 at 10:03 PM, NickBlasta said:

 

Sucks, but you were specifically allowed by the rulebook. Knowing your rules helps you in the match.

 

(This was regarding 5.2.4.2, and carrying in the hand.)

 

I've seen several stages over time where the WSB specifically said that stowing or carrying was not allowed, and violating that resulted in procedural penalties for not following the WSB.  In cases of barrel starts (for magazines) where the WSB did NOT prohibit stowing and such, carrying was legal.

 

My understanding was that the WSB could specifically prohibit stowing, but if it didn't, it was legal due to 5.2.4.2. 

[Gary Stevens]

Another example of freestyle, after the buzzer, being infringed upon, IMO.

[HCH]

1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

Another example of freestyle, after the buzzer, being infringed upon, IMO.

I agree 

[oddjob]

If shooting Production or Single Stack, after the start signal can I put mags from the table and in my back pockets?

Edited February 27, 2019 by oddjob

[NickBlasta]

10 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

(This was regarding 5.2.4.2, and carrying in the hand.)

 

I've seen several stages over time where the WSB specifically said that stowing or carrying was not allowed, and violating that resulted in procedural penalties for not following the WSB.  In cases of barrel starts (for magazines) where the WSB did NOT prohibit stowing and such, carrying was legal.

 

My understanding was that the WSB could specifically prohibit stowing, but if it didn't, it was legal due to 5.2.4.2. 

 

I have seen such stages too. Prohibiting stowing of magazines is fine because the rule does not specifically allow you to stow magazines. Nor does it disallow it, so conceivably on a mags on barrel start you could stuff your pouches, but as you note, it would be fine for the WSB to prohibit it. However as carrying a magazine in the hand is specifically allowed, it does not seem to logically follow that you could disallow it via WSB.

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 

I have seen such stages too. Prohibiting stowing of magazines is fine because the rule does not specifically allow you to stow magazines. Nor does it disallow it, so conceivably on a mags on barrel start you could stuff your pouches, but as you note, it would be fine for the WSB to prohibit it. However as carrying a magazine in the hand is specifically allowed, it does not seem to logically follow that you could disallow it via WSB.

 

The question is, why would anyone who wasn't a micromanaging dick *want* to prohibit stowing magazines? Let the shooter solve the problem however they feel best.

[Sarge]

10 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

The question is, why would anyone who wasn't a micromanaging dick *want* to prohibit stowing magazines? Let the shooter solve the problem however they feel best.

Nothing wrong with having different stuff going on. If barrels are strategically located it makes a great challenge.

[motosapiens]

37 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Nothing wrong with having different stuff going on. If barrels are strategically located it makes a great challenge.

makes an even better challenge if you allow the shooter to choose. set it up so using the barrels is probably faster, rather than micromanaging every detail like an IDPA stage.

[Sarge]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

makes an even better challenge if you allow the shooter to choose. set it up so using the barrels is probably faster, rather than micromanaging every detail like an IDPA stage.

Nah... see this maybe 2-3 times a year. That’s hardly micromanaging. 

[d_striker]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Nah... see this maybe 2-3 times a year. That’s hardly micromanaging. 

 

If someone only commits a felony once every 2-3 years, are they hardly a felon?

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, d_striker said:

 

If someone only commits a felony once every 2-3 years, are they hardly a felon?

Apples to oranges.

[Gary Stevens]

6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

The question is, why would anyone who wasn't a micromanaging dick *want* to prohibit stowing magazines? Let the shooter solve the problem however they feel best.

 

This. This was how it was previously done using freestyle. Here is the problem, now you solve it.

[NickBlasta]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

The question is, why would anyone who wasn't a micromanaging dick *want* to prohibit stowing magazines? Let the shooter solve the problem however they feel best.

 

As in most cases the WSB is the stick, you can usually get what you want with the stage design carrot. You could just design it so they pass the barrel anyway on the way to each position so stuffing pouches is slower.

Edited February 28, 2019 by NickBlasta