Sarge Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Dirty_J said: Ok. Shouldnt. The wheels are close to coming off for sure now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustychev Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 22 minutes ago, egd5 said: No ammo "out". Define out. Is that mag in hand, mag on belt 12" away from gun being bagged, where do you draw the line? As Rowdy said a couple of posts back, we have to have some amount of trust in people at these shoots. A shooter has just taken out the mag, has it in hand while he shows clear and you can't trust him to continue holding it while he bags it? Suddenly he is a danger to everyone? Also, as I believe Rowdy implies, we can't write rules and treat everyone as morons and try to cover every possible scenario. We need to use common sense and try to cover potential places for human error, not every what if...possibility. I would say same as safe table but how far around the guy bagging a PCC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egd5 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I must admit my ignorance here. I don't know what the exact rule is at a safe table. Can you have mags on your belt? In your range bag that you take your gun from? I don't know. But a safe table is different than bagging after a cof under an ro supervision. I still revert back to the last sentence of my last post, trust and common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 33 minutes ago, egd5 said: I must admit my ignorance here. I don't know what the exact rule is at a safe table. Can you have mags on your belt? In your range bag that you take your gun from? I don't know. But a safe table is different than bagging after a cof under an ro supervision. I still revert back to the last sentence of my last post, trust and common sense. Rules say you can’t handle any ammo at safe area. You can have mags on your belt in pouches, just don’t pull them out. Bagging area is just a special safety area, so same rules apply, no handling of ammo. Right now there is no penalty for handling ammo at a bagging area but I think a simple addition of bagging area safety rules apply for pcc, done. I’ve seen way to many matches where pcc shooters are loading mags at bagging table. Even seen match where the sign said “bagging area, not a safer area” which goes against what the rules say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 13 hours ago, rustychev said: If I bag my hand gun with live ammo in my hand Im going home. You do? When on the line in front of an RO? What rule is that? (If you are talking about the Safety Area, sure. But....none of the comments regarding PCC and such were about the safety area, so I'm not sure what you mean here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 12 hours ago, HoMiE said: Rules say you can’t handle any ammo at safe area. You can have mags on your belt in pouches, just don’t pull them out. Bagging area is just a special safety area, so same rules apply, no handling of ammo. Right now there is no penalty for handling ammo at a bagging area but I think a simple addition of bagging area safety rules apply for pcc, done. I’ve seen way to many matches where pcc shooters are loading mags at bagging table. Even seen match where the sign said “bagging area, not a safer area” which goes against what the rules say. Very confusing post. Are you saying there is a rule stating you can’t handle ammo at a bagging table? Or that you want there to be that rule? The last sentence especially. “Bagging Area, not a safety area which goes against what the rules say”. That sign is there to make it clear they can load mags there but can NOT turn on the dot, take sight picture, etc like they can at a safety area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 40 minutes ago, Sarge said: Very confusing post. Are you saying there is a rule stating you can’t handle ammo at a bagging table? Or that you want there to be that rule? The last sentence especially. “Bagging Area, not a safety area which goes against what the rules say”. That sign is there to make it clear they can load mags there but can NOT turn on the dot, take sight picture, etc like they can at a safety area If a bagging area is just a a safety area for pcc to unbag, then the same no ammo at bagging area should apply so there is no confusion about handling ammo at a safe area, whether that be a safety area for pistol or a bagging area for pcc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, HoMiE said: If a bagging area is just a a safety area for pcc to unbag, then the same no ammo at bagging area should apply so there is no confusion about handling ammo at a safe area, whether that be a safety area for pistol or a bagging area for pcc. A bagging area is just that. For bagging and unbagging period. It is in no way shape or form the same as a safety area. Those terms are not interchangeable. Saying it "should" apply means nothing really. Agreed, there can be confusion but it just makes it worse to consider them all the same thing. This is why the rules do say safety areas must be clearly marked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustychev Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Thomas H said: You do? When on the line in front of an RO? What rule is that? (If you are talking about the Safety Area, sure. But....none of the comments regarding PCC and such were about the safety area, so I'm not sure what you mean here.) The comment was in reference to bagging a handgun at a safe area but after going back and reading my comment I can see how that is not clear. Poor wording on my part. I would just like someone bagging into the berm to have the same ammo rules as someone at a safe table. Edited January 17, 2019 by rustychev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) We use this sign at our outlaw 3-Gun and PCC matches... makes everything clear: We had them printed on 18" x 24" corplast (not expensive), mounted them to target sticks and put them in target stands. If anyone wants a copy as a Word document, let me know. Edited January 18, 2019 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmantwo Posted January 19, 2019 Author Share Posted January 19, 2019 It was pointed out by the RM at FL State USPSA match today, Even having tables at side berms is not advisable because they are not covered mentioned in the rules and people tend to treat tables as safe areas when they are near berms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 If everyone wore their pcc on a sling on their body the whole match it wouldn't be an issue. And bag and unbag it at the beginning and end of day in the safe area like a pistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 46 minutes ago, rowdyb said: If everyone wore their pcc on a sling on their body the whole match it wouldn't be an issue. And bag and unbag it at the beginning and end of day in the safe area like a pistol thinking most if not all don't want to be carrying a slung pcc all day long, poking, banging around, etc. flag the pcc, whether it blocks the bolt or goes down into the chamber, the pcc is INERT and really don't understand all the hoopla over this. at that point it's like a shovel, mop or broom - inert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 hours ago, davsco said: thinking most if not all don't want to be carrying a slung pcc all day long, poking, banging around, etc. flag the pcc, whether it blocks the bolt or goes down into the chamber, the pcc is INERT and really don't understand all the hoopla over this. at that point it's like a shovel, mop or broom - inert. That is the "dead stick" concept we use in 3gun. Too much twisting of undergarments to be ever be done in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egd5 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 hours ago, davsco said: thinking most if not all don't want to be carrying a slung pcc all day long, poking, banging around, etc. flag the pcc, whether it blocks the bolt or goes down into the chamber, the pcc is INERT and really don't understand all the hoopla over this. at that point it's like a shovel, mop or broom - inert. YES, INERT! It cannot be fired so why all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, egd5 said: YES, INERT! It cannot be fired so why all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Because currently our rules don’t consider a flagged, uncashed PCC inert. And I think that goes to show that PCC is being shoved down our throats. The powers that be know a flagged PCC is safe but next would be flagged pistols being handled all match long or arguments being made that “it’s a 2011 and the hammer is down so it CAN’T fire”, blah blah blah. From a purely personal point of view PCC’s should be treated just like pistols and kept cased (just like holstered) until make ready. And under those rules it wouldn’t need flagged since pistols aren’t. Edited January 19, 2019 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Out of wild curiosity, where can you load ammunition in magazines ??? In car in parking lot ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 27 minutes ago, Steve RA said: Out of wild curiosity, where can you load ammunition in magazines ??? In car in parking lot ??? Anywhere but the safety area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Ok, Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David.Hylton Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 What is a bagging area? I don't see anything in the rule book about a specified area to bag/unbag a PCC. Rule 5.2.1.7 says: Carbines must be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction directly into and within 2 yards of a side berm or backstop. It doesn't say it has to be a specific portion of the berm/backstop. If you add a casing/uncasing area aren't you just adding a safe area? We put a safety area in each bay to prevent any confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Steve RA said: Out of wild curiosity, where can you load ammunition in magazines ??? In car in parking lot ??? Same as for handguns. Anywhere but in a safety area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Sarge said: From a purely personal point of view PCC’s should be treated just like pistols and kept cased (just like holstered) until make ready. And under those rules it wouldn’t need flagged since pistols aren’t. except that bagging is needlessly inefficient and frankly the extra gun handling (bag in one hand, pcc in the other) diminishes safety. flagged = inert = broomstick. it is as simple as that, and it should be as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 hours ago, davsco said: except that bagging is needlessly inefficient and frankly the extra gun handling (bag in one hand, pcc in the other) diminishes safety. flagged = inert = broomstick. it is as simple as that, and it should be as simple as that. Were it that simple, five minutes later, people would be doing stage walkthroughs looking through the sights at targets, ROs, pasters, etc 'because broomstick'. USPSA went through this 20 years ago with pistols and remove-in-the-bag holsters... I don't see them changing it anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 4 hours ago, shred said: Were it that simple, five minutes later, people would be doing stage walkthroughs looking through the sights at targets, ROs, pasters, etc 'because broomstick'. USPSA went through this 20 years ago with pistols and remove-in-the-bag holsters... I don't see them changing it anytime soon. that's a little carried away. pretty sure there's a rule that says no walkthru's with firearms or firearm replicas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_J Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, davsco said: that's a little carried away. pretty sure there's a rule that says no walkthru's with firearms or firearm replicas. Oh cmon now. If one can't exaggerate and always think of the worst... then what's the point in living and speaking to strangers on the interwebz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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