gmantwo Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 During the RO briefing at 2 matches I worked last couple years, Optics Nats & FL Open, muzzle up/muzzle down carry of PCC’s was addressed both times. Troy said that while either option was allowed under the rules, he highly recommended muzzle down carry. At Optics he said that the BOD had discussed making muzzle down the requirement, but discussed was all. Smitty also said USA was considering making it a range rule. The case for muzzle down was that you could take that gun anywhere on the range & drop it into a bag or cart, muzzle down, and never have to sweep anyone. And no RO supervision necessary. Muzzle up that is not the case. Also muzzle up in a cart, cart falls over, your gun just swept multiple people. He encouraged us to pass that along to shooters(very contentious arguments insued because most thought we were saying they HAD to carry muzzle down. Sheesh!) 8.3.7.3 says “when casing PCC’s the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or backstop during casing will result in a DQ per 10.5.19” To my question. If you carry muzzle down you will not sweep anyone putting your PCC away, and in order to point the muzzle “at a side berm or backstop” you’d have to change its attitude to horizontal. Rules are rules, so I’d like a clarification for myself as a shooter & an RO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I'm not sure I follow here, are you saying that going from muzzle down to pointing to a side berm could be a DQ? or from muzzle up to side berm? Or saying that if you case the PCC with the muzzle down, you would DQ? In essence, it states "while casing" so you would already be at the berm or within a reasonable distance, sleeve or bag it while it's pointing at the berm. Please elaborate. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmantwo Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 5.2.1.7 is more clear, as it states “muzzle pointed directly into or within 2 yards of a side berm or backstop” 52 minutes ago, gng4life said: I'm not sure I follow here, are you saying that going from muzzle down to pointing to a side berm could be a DQ? or from muzzle up to side berm? Or saying that if you case the PCC with the muzzle down, you would DQ? In essence, it states "while casing" so you would already be at the berm or within a reasonable distance, sleeve or bag it while it's pointing at the berm. Please elaborate. Thanks. No, not saying you would DQ in the situations you stated. My query had to do with the RM(Troy) telling us that if a shooter carries the PCC muzzle down they could cart/case/uncart/uncase nearly anywhere without fear of sweeping anyone and thus getting a DQ. But the initial rule, 8.3.7.3 says it must be pointed at a side berm or backstop. The second rule I referenced 5.2.1.7 adds “within 2 yards of a side berm or backstop”, so it clears up my question. Trying to explain it simpler, if you had your PCC muzzle down as you left the line, the only way to “point at a side berm or backstop” when casing would be to turn the gun horizontally when there would be no reason to do so. Muzzle down I do not need to point to a berm or backstop to case, but 5.2.1.7 says I must do so within 2 yards of one. Glad they added that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 In 3 gun and sometimes in USPSA PCC I see people sweeping others feet. Nothing is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Best practice likely varies by locale (safe muzzle direction, shooter demographics, local customs). I'd rather USPSA not impose a one-size-fits-all mandate - we don't need to be DQing folks over what is arguably a harmless technicality. If they actually sweep someone, then that is one thing... DQing for something that could maybe lead to sweeping seems silly to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Hmm. Mine is carried muzzle-up to and from the starting location, and mounted vertically (muzzle up) in a VERY secure clamp in a cart. Secure enough that I’m willing to risk/accept a DQ if the flagged rifle were to somehow tip over and sweep anyone. I’d rather they left this up to the individual shooter; I dislike potentially pointing a gun at my own feet while walking the stage behind the scorekeeper, and the muzzle is not elevated above the berm unless ther’e a big chunk of yellow plastic in the chamber. This is an acceptable risk profile for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerritm Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 4 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said: Best practice likely varies by locale (safe muzzle direction, shooter demographics, local customs). I'd rather USPSA not impose a one-size-fits-all mandate - we don't need to be DQing folks over what is arguably a harmless technicality. If they actually sweep someone, then that is one thing... DQing for something that could maybe lead to sweeping seems silly to me. We were crazy when PCC's first started with rules, each range had a little different handling rule, how to carry, where to bag/unbag, every official and their brother scrutinizing each move. waiting to DQ someone. There was some poor PCC handling at first with all the new rifle shooters who were using these for the first time in matches. Many of us shot 3-gun & were used to flags and safe rifle handling procedures. But, after coaching and shooters actually reading the rules it has become a pretty standard practice with all. Flags are required. Un-case/case or take off cart into berm or at make ready. Muzzle generally up, but a few like muzzle down. Indoor we all use a case and bring it up to the line and wait for make ready. The few that can't seem to read we coach. Generally only happens once depending on the infraction. One thing is if we shoot at a different or new range we ask the RM/SO what they prefer or require. Makes life a whole lot easier. gerritm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egd5 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 As long as a rifle has a flag in it I really don't see the difference in that or in a case. It cannot be fired. No one seems to worry about which way it is pointed or if it sweeps anybody as long as it's in a case. Hell, it could be loaded, off safe with a hair trigger and loose stuff rattling around in there and no one would know. At least when flagged you can see it is safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 17 hours ago, egd5 said: As long as a rifle has a flag in it I really don't see the difference in that or in a case. It cannot be fired. No one seems to worry about which way it is pointed or if it sweeps anybody as long as it's in a case. Hell, it could be loaded, off safe with a hair trigger and loose stuff rattling around in there and no one would know. At least when flagged you can see it is safe. You can't sweep anyone with a cased firearm, if it is flagged and you sweep yourself or anyone else, it is a DQ. I see guys with muzzle down sweeping people as they walk to and from the stage, muzzle up and directly into the case at the berm and you are less likely to sweep yourself or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlo86cj Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 2017 Optics Nationals I was told by Troy muzzle down and flagged there was no problem sweeping your feet, or others. I mounted a vertical scabbard in my cart and just dropped it in. Simple and didn’t require a special parking spot. At Area 6 2018 Troy told me the board changed it and you could now be DQ’d for sweeping yours or anyone’s feet. I now carry pointed up and park my cart within 2 yards of a side berm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revoman Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 12 hours ago, bret said: You can't sweep anyone with a cased firearm, if it is flagged and you sweep yourself or anyone else, it is a DQ. Just a question, does this count for all firearms such as pistols and revolvers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egd5 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 13 hours ago, bret said: You can't sweep anyone with a cased firearm, if it is flagged and you sweep yourself or anyone else, it is a DQ. I see guys with muzzle down sweeping people as they walk to and from the stage, muzzle up and directly into the case at the berm and you are less likely to sweep yourself or anyone else. You are still "sweeping "them. The gun is just inside the case. Yet we all consider that safe. Do you know always what the condition of that gun is inside of that case?? If I see a flag in the action I know it it safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, egd5 said: You are still "sweeping "them. The gun is just inside the case. Yet we all consider that safe. Do you know always what the condition of that gun is inside of that case?? If I see a flag in the action I know it it safe. I have made this same argument but finally gave it more thought. While it’s tue A fully exposed rifle with a flag is a known entity. You can see there is no mag inserted nor can there be a bolt closed on a round. A rifle in a bag could be loaded and nobody would know. But I would rather be swept by a bagged rifle than just a flagged rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egd5 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Yeah, it not cool being swept. I'm not necessarily advocating to change anything, more an observation than anything else. We -action shooting type events- do place a lot more emphasis on sweeping though I think. At a skeet or trap match people walk around with shotguns broken open and it's different altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_J Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 13 hours ago, bret said: You can't sweep anyone with a cased firearm, if it is flagged and you sweep yourself or anyone else, it is a DQ. I see guys with muzzle down sweeping people as they walk to and from the stage, muzzle up and directly into the case at the berm and you are less likely to sweep yourself or anyone else. Is there some new ballistic nylon that can stop a projectile!? There are good points all around here... but I tend to agree with egd5... visible is good. We're all "assuming" a cased rifle is clear, flagged and safe. While that's likely to be the case... there's no way to know for sure if any of those things are true when the rifle out of sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 47 minutes ago, revoman said: Just a question, does this count for all firearms such as pistols and revolvers? If a pistol is holstered you can't sweep yourself with it because you don't have access to the trigger and there is an exception in the rules for sweeping lower extremities while holstering or drawing the pistol. There is absolutely no time you are allowed to sweep anyone or yourself, feet etc. With a PCC even if it is flagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, Dirty_J said: Is there some new ballistic nylon that can stop a projectile!? There are good points all around here... but I tend to agree with egd5... visible is good. We're all "assuming" a cased rifle is clear, flagged and safe. While that's likely to be the case... there's no way to know for sure if any of those things are true when the rifle out of sight. No access to the trigger while it is cased, so it isn't considered sweeping while in a case. that's the rule, not something I came up with, take it up with DNROI if you think it should be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 54 minutes ago, egd5 said: You are still "sweeping "them. The gun is just inside the case. Yet we all consider that safe. Do you know always what the condition of that gun is inside of that case?? If I see a flag in the action I know it it safe. No access to the trigger in a cased gun, so it isn't considered sweeping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, revoman said: Just a question, does this count for all firearms such as pistols and revolvers? Yes. A cased gun is a cased gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustychev Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) A flagged PCC or cased PCC are both "safe" but I dont want to be in front of the gun just like I dont want to be in front of a handgun. Having said that I "feel" safer around a holstered hand gun assuming it is in a quality holster that is not a uncle mikes nylon type holster. Most PCC cases are soft and I dont like that. soft case or soft holster or both bad as far as I am concerned. Only real problem I have seen with PCC as a RO is guys that cant keep from messing with the red dot when casing and un-casing into the side berm. Edited January 15, 2019 by rustychev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_J Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 31 minutes ago, bret said: No access to the trigger in a cased gun, so it isn't considered sweeping. Riiiight, but you have no idea what other "items" may be in an enclosed bag that could discharge the trigger. Not saying it's right or wrong.. just stating a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, rustychev said: A flagged PCC or cased PCC are both "safe" but I dont want to be in front of the gun just like I dont want to be in front of a handgun. Having said that I "feel" safer around a holstered hand gun assuming it is in a quality holster that is not a uncle mikes nylon type holster. Most PCC cases are soft and I dont like that. soft case or soft holster or both bad as far as I am concerned. Only real problem I have seen with PCC as a RO is guys that cant keep from messing with the red dot when casing and un-casing into the side berm. You sweep anyone or yourself with a PCC even if flagged, it is a DQ. Messing with the optic before the make ready unless in a safe area is a DQ. How are you going to ever get in front of the muzzle of a holstered pistol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, Dirty_J said: Riiiight, but you have no idea what other "items" may be in an enclosed bag that could discharge the trigger. Not saying it's right or wrong.. just stating a possibility. You are right, a lot of possibilities. I think pcc in a handgun match is a bad idea, USPSA could have done a better job on implementing the rules, but seemed to be in a big hurry to get it out there, some people are very sloppy with their PCC's. My GF shot a match with PCC I would uncase it at the berm, take it to her muzzle up, the r.o. told he make ready, I handed it to her, after she was done, and it was flagged, I grabbed it, muzzle up, went directly to the berm and bagged it. Other guys walk up muzzle down and sweeping their feet and others too, because they think a flagged pcc is like a holstered pistol, but it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_J Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Handgun match? I think you meant "practical shooting" match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustychev Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, bret said: You sweep anyone or yourself with a PCC even if flagged, it is a DQ. Messing with the optic before the make ready unless in a safe area is a DQ. How are you going to ever get in front of the muzzle of a holstered pistol? Depending on how the holster is set up if someone bends over to say set steel it is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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