Admitting guilt to an AD

[mwray]

Yesterday at a local match I was running a lady shooting PCC on the classifier when her first shot broke too soon. I immediately stopped her and asked her to UASC. She complied willing because she knew why. Then her husband jumps in and says I can't call that an AD since the bullet hit the target. I agreed, but when she sat down by her man I overheard her admitting that it was in fact an accident. I feel that she should've been sent home for being unsafe but the rule book kinda protected her on this. What should I have done?

 

 

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[BillChunn]

As the RO, what rule did you quote for the DQ?  

 

BC

 

 

[tanks]

27 minutes ago, mwray said:

 

... I feel that she should've been sent home for being unsafe but the rule book kinda protected her on this. What should I have done?...

 

There is a reason for the rulebook, otherwise every mike could be interpreted as an AD. Feelings do not come into it. People also sometimes shoot a bit too soon while transitioning between targets, would you also DQ people then as well?

[Sarge]

38 minutes ago, mwray said:

 

Yesterday at a local match I was running a lady shooting PCC on the classifier when her first shot broke too soon. I immediately stopped her and asked her to UASC. She complied willing because she knew why. Then her husband jumps in and says I can't call that an AD since the bullet hit the target. I agreed, but when she sat down by her man I overheard her admitting that it was in fact an accident. I feel that she should've been sent home for being unsafe but the rule book kinda protected her on this. What should I have done?

 

 

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You should have given her a reshoot.

[open17]

She didn't break any rules.    Heck--she didn't even miss the target with the "slightly ahead of its time" shot.  

Re-shoot.        

 

[mwray]

You should have given her a reshoot.

I did give her a reshoot, but if a person admits to being unsafe should that not hold some ground in a decision


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[David.Hylton]

Not according to the rule book. 10.4 has very specific definitions of an AD.

 

How did you know the shot broke too soon?. 

[mwray]

Not according to the rule book. 10.4 has very specific definitions of an AD.
 
How did you know the shot broke too soon?. 

I was watching her and the gun. The gun went off before she was down on the sight. Gun goes off. She jumps almost out of her shoes. I stopped her right then.


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[StuckinMS]

22 minutes ago, mwray said:

I was watching her and the gun. The gun went off before she was down on the sight. Gun goes off. She jumps almost out of her shoes. I stopped her right then.


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Gun was pointed in safe direction, according to You stating "she hit the target" . You cannot say she was unsafe.  She should not have been stopped, but since she was, she should have gotten a reshoot. Crap happens and as long as it isn't against the rules then you cannot make a ruling.  The RO is there to enforce rules, not make them.  And I am not bashing, just stating.  We all make mistakes and it sounds like no one's feelings got hurt, so learn and move on.

[wgj3]

Sounds like one for Doodie to me!

 

(and I even know of stuff to add about the hubs that legitimately shouldve been a DQ for him)

[Hi-Power Jack]

Wow.   That's a new one on me ...

 

I'm NOT an RO - never took the course because my hearing is pretty poor.

 

BUT, I don't see how firing a gun and hitting the target is an AD.

 

Sounds to me like she fired the shot just as soon as the gun was

aiming at the target - that's what I try to do.

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, mwray said:

I did give her a reshoot, but if a person admits to being unsafe should that not hold some ground in a decision


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Not in my opinion. Violating a rule is what matters.

[rowdyb]

Read the rule book. Re shoot. Many people do something during the course of fire that might be considered "unsafe" by someone. (Oh like say running full speed over gravel with a gun. You get the idea) But your feelings and their feelings aren't how you make the decision.

 

Being surprised by having the gun go off as described could be described as an error, but not a dq offense.

Edited May 14, 2018 by rowdyb

[IHAVEGAS]

11 hours ago, mwray said:

I did give her a reshoot, but if a person admits to being unsafe should that not hold some ground in a decision


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Problem is that we all have somewhat different opinions of what actions are unsafe, to many just the idea of scampering about with a loaded gun that has a 2 lb trigger is mentally Abbie Normal. 

 

So some folks wrote this book and we either are ok with going by what is there or else it bugs us enough to not get involved in the sport. 

[mwray]

After examination I realized I made a bad call and for that she got another chance. She and I both know that her action was negligent. The women is slowly building a reputation for the gun going off accidentally while in her possession, but usually the round clears the berm. I’ve seen and let go many accidental discharges that were deemed safe per the rule book, but I’ve never had the shooter admit that they were guilty of the action. I was just curious as to everyone’s thoughts to the guilty plea on her part. Seems like if running with your finger inside the trigger guard is such a bad offense, one would think that a gun going off unwanted at any time would be equally just as bad.

[davsco]

there are specific rules for AD's and from the above she didn't seem to break any of them, even if she 'admitted' to lighting one off earlier than planned.

 

in 10.5 they use the words 'including but not limited to' so that gives the RO some discretion to call a DQ even if there aren't specific rules or examples supporting that.  still, at the end of the day, if she hit the target, even with her admission, i'd say no dq.  and also i'd say a dq needs to be called at the time of the infraction, not a minute or an hour later if you hear the shooter indict themselves.

[davsco]

3 minutes ago, mwray said:

After examination I realized I made a bad call and for that she got another chance. She and I both know that her action was negligent. The women is slowly building a reputation for the gun going off accidentally while in her possession, but usually the round clears the berm. I’ve seen and let go many accidental discharges that were deemed safe per the rule book, but I’ve never had the shooter admit that they were guilty of the action. I was just curious as to everyone’s thoughts to the guilty plea on her part. Seems like if running with your finger inside the trigger guard is such a bad offense, one would think that a gun going off unwanted at any time would be equally just as bad.

the problem is that one (inside trigger guard) is pretty black and white, while the other (AD) is a little subjective.  and folks that 'confess' to a "safe" AD shouldn't be treated worse than folks that don't.  the action was either 'safe' or not irrespective of what the shooter says and when they say it.

[HickLife]

I’m not gonna say much about this but if I have an AD and I know it was an AD, even if It hit the target, I’m probably going to DQ myself just out of shame. Regardless of what the RO says. I didn’t keep my finger off the trigger until ready to fire. It’s the same thing as drawing and pumping one into the ground in front of you. I know people are going to say “rules rules rules!” But that’s my opinion. There is a reason it says “not limited to” and some people try to say that if it is not specifically laid out in the book it is fine or can’t be called.

Squeezing one off too early during a transition is a little different though, you are actively engaging targets, your eyes were probably on it and the gun just didn’t make it over before you thought you were ready, you meant to shoot but you weren’t quite on target yet, or you could have swung a little past it and squeezed before you realized you had to correct. Still purposely squeezing the trigger.

If you wanna go all Taran Butler and fire from the hip then so be it but like some of the other threads say it will be obvious (like this case also) if the shot was intended.

This went longer than intended but one last thing, if she is such a safety concern like stated then she needs more training or instruction and not allowed to shoot matches until she can prove that she has in fact improved. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like she has been DQ’d a lot. This sport has the potential to be extremely dangerous and safety should be the main concern, if she has proven time and time again that she is unsafe then she shouldn’t be shooting until she can be safe. Just my .02.


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[usmc1974]

Unsafe? That is a word not for IPSC. I have seen good fast shooters, run to a shooting box with 1 foot in the box the other foot still in the air shoot all targets and never slow down run out the box and the 2nd foot lands out the other side of the box. Just a thought.  LOL

[usmc1974]

2 minutes ago, HickLife said:

I’m not gonna say much about this but if I have an AD and I know it was an AD, even if It hit the target, I’m probably going to DQ myself just out of shame. Regardless of what the RO says. I didn’t keep my finger off the trigger until ready to fire. It’s the same thing as drawing and pumping one into the ground in front of you. I know people are going to say “rules rules rules!” But that’s my opinion. There is a reason it says “not limited to” and some people try to say that if it is not specifically laid out in the book it is fine or can’t be called.

Squeezing one off too early during a transition is a little different though, you are actively engaging targets, your eyes were probably on it and the gun just didn’t make it over before you thought you were ready, you meant to shoot but you weren’t quite on target yet, or you could have swung a little past it and squeezed before you realized you had to correct. Still purposely squeezing the trigger.

If you wanna go all Taran Butler and fire from the hip then so be it but like some of the other threads say it will be obvious (like this case also) if the shot was intended.

This went longer than intended but one last thing, if she is such a safety concern like stated then she needs more training or instruction and not allowed to shoot matches until she can prove that she has in fact improved. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like she has been DQ’d a lot. This sport has the potential to be extremely dangerous and safety should be the main concern, if she has proven time and time again that she is unsafe then she shouldn’t be shooting until she can be safe. Just my .02.


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Ah yeah, Right.

[HickLife]

Ah yeah, Right.

Is that in agreement or no? I honestly can’t tell

Why wouldn’t safe be a word for a sport where you run and gun? That’s the point for the 180 rule, shooting over the berm, finger off the trigger when reloading and such. One screw up and someone could be dead.

If someone is good enough to be able to sprint around and shoot on one foot and not fall then good on ‘em. But I bet they started slow and built up the skill to perform like that. They also know that if they fall they are done






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[GOF]

ROs aren't mind readers and shouldn't 'play one on the range'. There is a rule book for things like this. Follow the Rules. ROs who want to be 'mind readers'  (I've seen a few) shouldn't be ROs. Just my .02c.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, HickLife said:

I’m not gonna say much about this but if I have an AD and I know it was an AD, even if It hit the target, I’m probably going to DQ myself just out of shame. Regardless of what the RO says. I didn’t keep my finger off the trigger until ready to fire. It’s the same thing as drawing and pumping one into the ground in front of you. I know people are going to say “rules rules rules!” But that’s my opinion. There is a reason it says “not limited to” and some people try to say that if it is not specifically laid out in the book it is fine or can’t be called.

Squeezing one off too early during a transition is a little different though, you are actively engaging targets, your eyes were probably on it and the gun just didn’t make it over before you thought you were ready, you meant to shoot but you weren’t quite on target yet, or you could have swung a little past it and squeezed before you realized you had to correct. Still purposely squeezing the trigger.

If you wanna go all Taran Butler and fire from the hip then so be it but like some of the other threads say it will be obvious (like this case also) if the shot was intended.

This went longer than intended but one last thing, if she is such a safety concern like stated then she needs more training or instruction and not allowed to shoot matches until she can prove that she has in fact improved. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like she has been DQ’d a lot. This sport has the potential to be extremely dangerous and safety should be the main concern, if she has proven time and time again that she is unsafe then she shouldn’t be shooting until she can be safe. Just my .02.


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If you just follow the rule book you and everyone around you will be much happier.

[Steve RA]

Just falling down while maintaining the gun pointing in a safe direction is not grounds for a DQ.  I did it at the Nationals once.

[GrumpyOne]

43 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

Just falling down while maintaining the gun pointing in a safe direction is not grounds for a DQ.  I did it at the Nationals once.

On purpose?