Lucas Oil PCC World Championship

[MHitchcock]

If you go to the Facebook for the lucas oil pcc championship, it is day 2 stage 5 for supersquad. Posted Sept 3 @ 1043am. Leograndis starts shooting at 2:30ish. Gun is taken and request to go to bay at 4:30ish. At 10:30ish the camera guy catches Leograndis saying he is being DQ'd. 

[Jimboslice]

From everything I've seen posted about the topic I've seen 1 logical explanation which is this was an "Outlaw" time plus event, NOT a USPSA match. In 3-gun a lot of rulebooks have clauses in the rules to allow the RM to be able to make rules on the fly should there be any unforeseen circumstances.  So in this case, the RM didn't like him "burst-firing" aka physically bump-firing the gun, told him to fix the issue after the 1st day, 2nd day he keeps doing it and does it in while the RM is watching and I guess what you see in the video MHitchcock is talking above is what is the followup. 

[MHitchcock]

That is true the RM can make rules as he goes, that is not the matter in question. He has the discretion to do as he pleases.

 

The problem I see with this particular case is that he was DQ'd because his gun CAN bumpfire - AKA unsafe equipment - in that case most blowback PCC's are by definition unsafe. There isn't an equipment problem, the trigger works as intended - one trigger press, one shot. 

 

If the problem was him physically bump-firing, the warning should have been - "bump firing is not allowed, stop now". Then when he did it, it should have been a DQ for the action. Not "lets see if I can bumpfire your PCC." And then DQ'ing for unsafe equipment. 

 

**I would be willing to bet most of the top competitors shooting AR-9's could have their weapons induced to bump fire, Leograndis has specifically set his up to be able to do this, so it is obviously easier to induce, but it still doesn't equate to unsafe equipment as I see it**

 

***On a side note, this match looked like a blast and I am intending to try and make it next year. I have no horse in the bump-fire race as my current platform can't bumpfire. It is however an interesting issue to talk about :). Looked like a fantastic match, and it looks like it has a great future in the years to come***

Edited September 6, 2017 by MHitchcock

[Phong Nguyen]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I don't see a call made there. Was it done after that run or on another stage? The RO didn't stop him.

 I still don't see a DQ unless something was said or done that NONE of us are privy to.

 

I wasn't clear on what folks were talking about until I saw that video.  That is a bump fire. I've seen Max do it several times at  our local club.  He's on target and engaging. It's not unsafe and he shouldn't have been DQ'ed. But, it is the RM's call and that looks like a bad call,  unless the rules specifically say no bump fire allowed.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Jimboslice said:

From everything I've seen posted about the topic I've seen 1 logical explanation which is this was an "Outlaw" time plus event, NOT a USPSA match. In 3-gun a lot of rulebooks have clauses in the rules to allow the RM to be able to make rules on the fly should there be any unforeseen circumstances.  So in this case, the RM didn't like him "burst-firing" aka physically bump-firing the gun, told him to fix the issue after the 1st day, 2nd day he keeps doing it and does it in while the RM is watching and I guess what you see in the video MHitchcock is talking above is what is the followup. 

Ah. Not USPSA. Never mind.

[jackson923]

Match was awesome!  Mr. Forrest Lucas and the extended Lucas Oil family did an outstanding job building the range for this match.  Looking forward to future matches there as improvements to the range are already underway.  Stages were great and some of the best were brought in to facilitate the match.  Reading through I'll say that the Range Master did a fantastic job and made the right calls that were fair.  The prize table ran deep and the banquet after the match was fantastic.  Best part was it had no rain during the match!

[gerritm]

We had a great time. Brought 4 of us from Houston area with all different PCC experience. It was my son's 2nd PCC match, his friends 3rd or 4th shooting an MP5 SBR clone that ran perfect. Stages were great, food was outstanding, prizes were excellent even though we did not finish real high. All of us had major malfunctions at one time or another other than the MP5.

 

Saw many guns go down and learned a few things from our problems. Bring a gun, mags, and ammo that is thoroughly tested and reliable.  Reliability is the key. 10 stages total are brutal on PCC's. Saw 4 different guns go down with serious malfunctions in the last 2 or 3 stages.

 

Will be there next year.

 

Gerrit, Nick, Q, &  Dave.

[OPENB]

What was the longest shot? Was a simple red dot sufficient? 

[cautery]

"Warning"  Unsolicited Opinions Follows

Allowing a Match Director (or anyone) to "make up" rules "on the fly" or for a match that has already begun is ludicrous and fraught with multiple potential issues.

NOT a burst or double based on the video I saw.  You wanna make bump firing "illegal", then write a rule BEFORE the match.  Look forward to fewer entries IF you do.

Edited September 9, 2017 by cautery

[Flatland Shooter]

4 hours ago, cautery said:

 You wanna make bump firing "illegal", then write a rule BEFORE the match.  Look forward to fewer entries IF you do.

 

Fewer entries just because bumpfiring would not be allowed?      How many out there actually bumpfire during a match on purpose?       How many can even bumpfire on command?

 

Not arguing, just curious.

 

[GorillaTactical]

1 hour ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Fewer entries just because bumpfiring would not be allowed?      

 

I think likely the issue would be, not bump-firing specifically, just that there was a ruling made allegedly regarding a technique that was not prohibited by the rules...I look forward to hearing the full story from the individual involved before making any sort of personal judgement on the fairness or reasonableness of the entire thing. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by GorillaTactical

[jackson923]

8 hours ago, OPENB said:

What was the longest shot? Was a simple red dot sufficient? 

 

Longest shot was 80-85 yards.  A red dot was sufficient.  I use a red dot out to 99.5 yards on 6" plates for 3 Gun Nation regionals shooting PCC.

[fishhunter3]

I don't know about the rules, but when you're warned about it on day 1 and told to fix it and you don't, and just ignore the RM, what would expect to happen. I was glad to see that the match officials would DQ a top shooter this never seems to happen in other big matches with the top shooters, look at  what happened at area 3 this year as just one example and I know there are others

[mike4045]

On 9/9/2017 at 7:30 PM, fishhunter3 said:

I don't know about the rules, but when you're warned about it on day 1 and told to fix it and you don't, and just ignore the RM, what would expect to happen. I was glad to see that the match officials would DQ a top shooter this never seems to happen in other big matches with the top shooters, look at  what happened at area 3 this year as just one example and I know there are others

What he said.

[Stlhead]

There is no need to write a rule prohibiting intentional bump firing.  There is already a rule saying that no full auto or burst fire is allowed, bump firing = burst fire.  Yes, nearly any PCC can be bump fired, the problem is when it is done on purpose to gain a competitive advantage.  There are plenty of rules, typically what is missing is a willingness to enforce them.

[dsu96]

On 9/9/2017 at 8:30 PM, fishhunter3 said:

I don't know about the rules, but when you're warned about it on day 1 and told to fix it and you don't, and just ignore the RM, what would expect to happen. I was glad to see that the match officials would DQ a top shooter this never seems to happen in other big matches with the top shooters, look at  what happened at area 3 this year as just one example and I know there are others

 

What happened at Area 3?

 

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, dsu96 said:

 

What happened at Area 3?

 

Do some searching for area 3. FB YouTube etc.

[StealthyBlagga]

On 9/12/2017 at 10:47 AM, Stlhead said:

There is no need to write a rule prohibiting intentional bump firing.  There is already a rule saying that no full auto or burst fire is allowed, bump firing = burst fire.  Yes, nearly any PCC can be bump fired, the problem is when it is done on purpose to gain a competitive advantage.  There are plenty of rules, typically what is missing is a willingness to enforce them.

 

 

Erm - no.

 

Bump fire is when the shooter pulls the trigger really fast by skillful use of the firearm's recoil motion. It is still one pull, one shot. The BATFE regards this as perfectly legal conduct with a semi-auto firearm.

 

Burst fire is when two or more shots are fired with a single pull of the trigger. The BATFE regards this as the same as full auto fire for all legal purposes. If a semi-auto firearm fires bursts when it is not designed to, then it is defective, and most match rules require its repair or withdrawal.

 

I am not going to spend any time looking at the Lucas Oil match rules to determine whether one or the other are permitted or not... just correcting the technical misunderstanding above.

Edited September 14, 2017 by StealthyBlagga

[MarkS_A18138]

[rlillyskygod]

[Stlhead]

Classy, your copy and paste skills certainly mark you as a deep thinker.  Holly shit, that last post is gone!  Ignore user saves my gentile sensibilities from future upset!

[Religious Shooter]

On 9/6/2017 at 7:39 AM, Phong Nguyen said:

 

I wasn't clear on what folks were talking about until I saw that video.  That is a bump fire. I've seen Max do it several times at  our local club.  He's on target and engaging. It's not unsafe and he shouldn't have been DQ'ed. But, it is the RM's call and that looks like a bad call,  unless the rules specifically say no bump fire allowed.

 

Interesting.  So if I gave him my rifle or anybody else's rifle he could do it on demand?

[Phong Nguyen]

1 hour ago, Religious Shooter said:

 

Interesting.  So if I gave him my rifle or anybody else's rifle he could do it on demand?

 

Max has bump fired my AR while we were filming videos that I've never been able to do myself.

[Religious Shooter]

Well I think that would be a good way to determine if it is skill or if it is a faulty rifle.

 

Barring performance anxiety of course.

[usmc1094]

Just my .02.......If he does it with two rounds every time than its on purpose, its when he does more, and he jokes about putting more on a target.  He's not meaning to do more than two, but sometimes it does.  Just because you can induce a malfunction doesn't make it a DQ, but since he can't control it every time I'd say it was.