Should amateurs have to shoot against "pros"?

[motosapiens]

When's my passing camp with Peyton start?

Peyton has a passing camp every summer in Thibodaux. If you were still in high school, you could come to it. And for a special treat, his brother and dad come too.

Ok, so peyton is obviously not a pro then.

[frgood]

Someone please tell me where I can get a driving lesson from Jeff Gordan, reading greens with Tiger, or free throw lessons from even a no name NBA star. When's my passing camp with Peyton start?

Within minutes on here we can be signed up for a class from Rob, Max or anyone that won nationals in the last decade for pennies compared to an intro course in golf from a big name pro.

Your thought makes me wonder about Pro/Am Tournaments (aren't the fund raisers?) where an amateur gets to pair up with a pro and you compete together against the other 'teams'. It is a good way to get some tips from the pro and raise some money for a worthy cause since the AM entry fees are pretty high for the privilege. I think something like that would be a great plus for our sport.

[ChuckS]

When's my passing camp with Peyton start?

Peyton has a passing camp every summer in Thibodaux. If you were still in high school, you could come to it. And for a special treat, his brother and dad come too.

Ok, so peyton is obviously not a pro then.

Eli is questionable...

[Southpaw]

I can already imagine the comments on here when they try determining who qualifies as a pro and who doesn't...

[rowdyb]

Right now you're a "pro shooter" if you have a shooting social media account or 4, have the same shirt as 3 or more other people and have ever received something for free or more likely cost plus 10%. I'm guilty of this thinking/self identification as well sometimes.

If you really want to do it, I think the best way would be an initial self reporting. Win as an amateur and you move to pro.

By the way, I'm not in favor of this. It's already confusing to someone if you talk to them about your match and have 4 different ways of telling them how you placed. 1. the combined overall. 2 overall in your division. 3. your classification within the division 4. possibly any category you might fit as well like junior or lady or senior.

The second one is all I tell people now.

[PatriotMRD]

If you are shooting to win prizes instead of to improve your skills, you are doing it wrong.

the reason pro's don't compete against amateurs in many forms of motor racing is safety. Where safety is not an issue (national enduro or national hare and hound), I get to compete against pros, and I like that.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to artificially restrict their competition. Might as well just give everyone a self-esteem medal.

YES!!! Well put Laddie!

I'm a "C" shooter and have no problem competing with GM, M, or "Pros". You can learn a lot from watching and listening how they attack and break down a stage.

How would you define "Pro"? Classification? Sponsored? I know several sponsored shooters that get a few pieces of gear, a little ammo/reloading supplies or some of their match fees covered. The vast majority of their costs are out of pocket. Would you require a financial disclosure form before each match?

Prizes don't mean much to me (they would be nice). I compete to improve, enjoy the shooting and the people. I may never reach M or GM level but, it's fun to try.

[davidb72]

If you are shooting to win prizes instead of to improve your skills, you are doing it wrong.

the reason pro's don't compete against amateurs in many forms of motor racing is safety. Where safety is not an issue (national enduro or national hare and hound), I get to compete against pros, and I like that.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to artificially restrict their competition. Might as well just give everyone a self-esteem medal.

YES!!! Well put Laddie!

I'm a "C" shooter and have no problem competing with GM, M, or "Pros". You can learn a lot from watching and listening how they attack and break down a stage.

How would you define "Pro"? Classification? Sponsored? I know several sponsored shooters that get a few pieces of gear, a little ammo/reloading supplies or some of their match fees covered. The vast majority of their costs are out of pocket. Would you require a financial disclosure form before each match?

Prizes don't mean much to me (they would be nice). I compete to improve, enjoy the shooting and the people. I may never reach M or GM level but, it's fun to try.

I think the sponsored shooters are the pros - Team Rudy, Team Sig, Team Glock, Team Springfield, Team Akai, Team CK, Team Phoenix Trinity, etc...

I enjoy shooting with them too, don't get me wrong. It's a cool benefit that amateurs can be on the same squad as them.

[Reshoot]

Is this serious? There are less than a dozen pros in shooting.

Until you quit your day job, a person isn't pro at anything. They're just better than other people.

Aren't there a lot of shooters, that get ammo, and match fees paid.

Sure there are some but they are hardly considered pro's.

But realistically this has to be why we have classes. The average C shooter isn't competing against a GM anyways.

Exactly! You can be squaded with a Grand Master but if you are an A, you are competing against other A's.

I am a Super Senior now and at the end of the day the only results that concern me are how I did against the other Super Seniors . . . be they "sponsored" or not.

Sure there are some but they are hardly considered pro's.

But realistically this has to be why we have classes. The average C shooter isn't competing against a GM anyways.

I am competing against everyone in my division, including GM's. Sure, I don't expect to beat some of the top dogs, but I still am using their scores to quantify my own performance and my improvement over time. Beating other guys in my 'class' is pretty meaningless.

Really? I take great pride in being high overall B class, or high overall super senior.

[mosher]

The "pro" is for "promotional", not "profession".

Not even the top 1% in this sport can pay for groceries by just showing up to shoot matches.

Marketing, promoting, teaching, training, interacting, customer servicing.

Step on the field and we all the same. I don't want to be put in a different bucket from someone else just because they are a better gun oil salesman. If they beat me it's because they worked harder and are better, not because somebody gave them some free shit.

Edited February 3, 2016 by mosher

[motosapiens]

Really? I take great pride in being high overall B class, or high overall super senior.

high super senior is cool if there are several others. I've definitely 'won' some age-groups in other sports that I thought were lame tho. It really says more about who else showed up than about how I performed. But it doesn't really bother me what it takes to make *you* feel good. I'm just talking about me. For me, High B or high A is totally meaningless except that it may represent improvement, or beating some guys I had never beaten before.

Edited February 3, 2016 by motosapiens

[4me2ply]

One of the things I like about shooting is there is the "pros versus joes" aspect. No one will let me on the same track as Rossi in a race but yet I potentially can be on the same squad as the "pros". Often a talented "joe" in any other sport will think to himself, 'i could beat him!', well in shooting you get your chance from day one. Think you're an amazing prodigy? Come out and prove it.

I'd love to turn a few laps with Rossi !

[rowdyb]

One of the things I like about shooting is there is the "pros versus joes" aspect. No one will let me on the same track as Rossi in a race but yet I potentially can be on the same squad as the "pros". Often a talented "joe" in any other sport will think to himself, 'i could beat him!', well in shooting you get your chance from day one. Think you're an amazing prodigy? Come out and prove it.

I'd love to turn a few laps with Rossi !

off topic, but i did the ttbc this near for the cota motogp race where rossi attended. it was pretty cool to be there with him!

[waktasz]

I think the sponsored shooters are the pros - Team Rudy, Team Sig, Team Glock, Team Springfield, Team Akai, Team CK, Team Phoenix Trinity, etc...

You'd be wrong.

Edited February 3, 2016 by waktasz

[motosapiens]

One of the things I like about shooting is there is the "pros versus joes" aspect. No one will let me on the same track as Rossi in a race but yet I potentially can be on the same squad as the "pros". Often a talented "joe" in any other sport will think to himself, 'i could beat him!', well in shooting you get your chance from day one. Think you're an amazing prodigy? Come out and prove it.

I'd love to turn a few laps with Rossi !

off topic, but i did the ttbc this near for the cota motogp race where rossi attended. it was pretty cool to be there with him!

Obviously it's not really safe for newbs and posers like us to be on the track at the same time as Rossi or other pro roadies, but I got the opportunity to run a national enduro on the same minute with many-time-champion mike lafferty. He's about the same amount faster and more consistent than me as Stoeger is.

[MarkCO]

OP, check out www.ammarksman.com built for amateurs, and to try and grow the entire sport.

Professional may be hard to define, but the High School athletic associations and NCAA have pretty strict definitions for amateurs.

[Nimitz]

In most sports 'professionals' are generally defined as someone who major source of income is derived from the sport ... In simple terms, they get paid to 'play'. How many of the top shooters get paid to go to matches and compete? Since there isn't any real prize money to win at matches a shooter can't make a living by winning & placing high in events like golfers or tennis players. They would have to be paid by a company to compete. So, how many shooters do you think are paid a salary by a company which allows them to compete in matches and requires them to have no other source of income? In other words, if you went to the HR dept of the company in question could you find an employee on their books whose duty title was "professional shooter" with an appropriate salary listed ...?

[4me2ply]

One of the things I like about shooting is there is the "pros versus joes" aspect. No one will let me on the same track as Rossi in a race but yet I potentially can be on the same squad as the "pros". Often a talented "joe" in any other sport will think to himself, 'i could beat him!', well in shooting you get your chance from day one. Think you're an amazing prodigy? Come out and prove it.

I'd love to turn a few laps with Rossi !

off topic, but i did the ttbc this near for the cota motogp race where rossi attended. it was pretty cool to be there with him!

Obviously it's not really safe for newbs and posers like us to be on the track at the same time as Rossi or other pro roadies, but I got the opportunity to run a national enduro on the same minute with many-time-champion mike lafferty. He's about the same amount faster and more consistent than me as Stoeger is.

Funny how it seems several of us transitioned into competitive shooting from motorcycling. I used to race hare scrambles.

[9x45]

Pros, there only source of income is from shooting, nothing less.

[MarkCO]

Pros, there only source of income is from shooting, nothing less.

That is a common opinion, however, it is not that simple. I posted this a few days ago on my FB page and the responses were interesting.

In my research for American Marksman, I did a lot of research on Amateurism. Some of that research was with the Colorado High School Activities Association, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, the United States Olympic Committee and various legal proceedings related to the Amatuer Sports Act of 1978 (36 U.S.C.). I also got legal advice from an attorney who specializes in this area of law.

I know that many in the shooting community have struggled with the definitions of amatuer and professional. However, I was able to find not just Federal Laws, but case law and athletic eligibility requirements that appear to have been well established in defining an Amatuer. While a few of my friends in the shooting sports have been a bit hostile about this topic and some have outright dismissed the information I have been able to find, if you have youth in the shooting sports, or sponsor youth in the shooting sports, you really should do your research and make sure you understand the implications. Many high school athletic associations have strict eligibility requirements to be able to compete in member schools athletic programs, as does the NCAA. I was made aware of NCAA amateurism certification decisions in which students were denied eligibility, and their scholarships had to be forfeited, for having violated the NCAA amateurism requirements. Often these were in an unrelated sport and in most cases, the students and their parents were unaware of the implications. I am NOT an attorney and I am NOT providing legal advice. It is however an issue that youth and their parents should research and explore prior to accepting any kind of sponsorship.

Here is the NCAA general guidelines on the subject of Amateurism:

Amateur competition is a bedrock principle of college athletics and the NCAA. Maintaining amateurism is crucial to preserving an academic environment in which acquiring a quality education is the first priority. In the collegiate model of sports, the young men and women competing on the field or court are students first, athletes second.

The NCAA membership has adopted amateurism rules to ensure the students’ priority remains on obtaining a quality educational experience and that all of student-athletes are competing equitably.

All incoming student-athletes must be certified as amateurs. With global recruiting becoming more common, determining the amateur status of prospective student-athletes can be challenging. All student-athletes, including international students, are required to adhere to NCAA amateurism requirements to remain eligible for intercollegiate competition.

In general, amateurism requirements do not allow:

Contracts with professional teams

Salary for participating in athletics

Prize money above actual and necessary expenses

Play with professionals

Tryouts, practice or competition with a professional team

Benefits from an agent or prospective agent

Agreement to be represented by an agent

Delayed initial full-time collegiate enrollment to participate in organized sports competition.

[mont1120]

I don't think our sport has enough members or financial backing to categorize pro from amateur. The amounts of money paid out at matches does not seem to me to come close to needing a separation of shooters, perhaps so in the future, but not now.

Having gotten into the sport when I reached senior status jades my ever so humble opinion, and I will be happy if I even get to A class. I never go to matches expecting a prize, (hell, I shoot L10 and beating myself and a half blind super senior is not exactly success), but I love to be paired up with M and GM shooters to learn, and base my performance based on their success.

Of course there are those days when you have the super squad following you at a major match, and you proceed to run your stage under their watchful eyes as you amuse them with you innate ability to miss a shot at 4 feet, blast wood into splinters with that calculated miss, and drop full reloads into the mud. Now you are giving them reciprocal training by reminding them on what NOT to do......a real value these days.

[motosapiens]

One of the things I like about shooting is there is the "pros versus joes" aspect. No one will let me on the same track as Rossi in a race but yet I potentially can be on the same squad as the "pros". Often a talented "joe" in any other sport will think to himself, 'i could beat him!', well in shooting you get your chance from day one. Think you're an amazing prodigy? Come out and prove it.

I'd love to turn a few laps with Rossi !

off topic, but i did the ttbc this near for the cota motogp race where rossi attended. it was pretty cool to be there with him!

Obviously it's not really safe for newbs and posers like us to be on the track at the same time as Rossi or other pro roadies, but I got the opportunity to run a national enduro on the same minute with many-time-champion mike lafferty. He's about the same amount faster and more consistent than me as Stoeger is.

Funny how it seems several of us transitioned into competitive shooting from motorcycling. I used to race hare scrambles.

both are loud and fast and involve control, but shooting is tons safer.

[mosher]

^^^ yep. In motorcycle racing, you are the projectile.

[teros135]

Mont1120 said:

... (hell, I shoot L10 and beating myself and a half blind super senior is not exactly success), but I love to be paired up with M and GM shooters to learn, and base my performance based on their success...

That made my morning!

(Spoken as a half-blind, bow-legged, aging guy with bad knees and a burning desire to stay with this sport as long as my aging body lets me)

Edited February 4, 2016 by teros135

[gose]

Play with professionals

Squad with some "Pros" and youre screwed?

[MarkCO]

Play with professionals

Squad with some "Pros" and youre screwed?

Actually, that is not what that ones means. That is intended for team play on team with professionals whether in practice or exhibition games, even if not paid.