TJART Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Simple question - should true "amateur" shooters have to compete against "pros"? When I was involved in motor racing there was a pretty clear definition of who was an amateur and who was a pro. I spent a lot of time in motorcycle racing and never saw a clear definition and doubt there is one in any other form of racing either. Hmmmn... so you never had to get a race license, yellow plate, white plate, etc.? I spent a lot of time in motorcycle racing as well, and there was a very clear definition of pro vs. joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Simple question - should true "amateur" shooters have to compete against "pros"? When I was involved in motor racing there was a pretty clear definition of who was an amateur and who was a pro. I spent a lot of time in motorcycle racing and never saw a clear definition and doubt there is one in any other form of racing either. Hmmmn... so you never had to get a race license, yellow plate, white plate, etc.? I spent a lot of time in motorcycle racing as well, and there was a very clear definition of pro vs. joe. Having white plates was not a sign you were a pro. It was a indicator who was a novice or expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Simple question - should true "amateur" shooters have to compete against "pros"? When I was involved in motor racing there was a pretty clear definition of who was an amateur and who was a pro. I spent a lot of time in motorcycle racing and never saw a clear definition and doubt there is one in any other form of racing either. Hmmmn... so you never had to get a race license, yellow plate, white plate, etc.? I spent a lot of time in motorcycle racing as well, and there was a very clear definition of pro vs. joe. there are different ability classes for novice, intermediate and expert (mostly for safety reasons), but at least in offroad racing, all the experts line up with all the 'pros', whoever they are. I was certainly never anything resembling a 'pro'. I never asked for or received any kind of sponsorship of any kind, but I was still lined up right next to kurt caselli, david kamo, david pearson, mike lafferty and various other folks who made more or less of a living from racing motorcycles. I didn't see them very often after the start (except in enduros), but I wasn't any further from their performances than I am from Ben Stoeger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerattix Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 First big match I shot there was a guy who was obviously better than everyone else on the squad. I had no idea who the guy was so I walked up to him and said "Nice shooting." He looked at me like I had two heads. I didn't think much of it but, by the end of the day we had talked a bit and it turned out he wasn't such a bad guy. In any case, I took it as an opportunity to pick up a trick or two by watching him plan his stages, etc. I thought it was pretty cool. The was a GM and was overall winner. For me, it was like playing a round of golf with Tiger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Hmm, I had NASCAR and NHRA competition licenses. In those sorts, a guy can not just come in off the street and run against the semi-pro or pro racers. There is tech, certification and sign-offs which increase if you want to move up. But being on the track next to an unskilled racer seems no less dangerous to me than being on the same berm as some of the yahoos I have seen at matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLDave Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 For me, it was like playing a round of golf with Tiger. This is how I feel. I think it is great that the amateurs and pros play together in our sport! You can truly get a sense of what your skills are (and are NOT) against the best in the world. I already know who my "realistic" competition is in most matches (the people who are about my skill level), who my "aspirational" competition is (the people that are better than me but are within reach if I do everything right), and who the "wow, that guy is amazing!" shooters are. Getting crushed by the last group does not hurt my feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Realizing that a 'rank & file" shooter, defined as an amateur here, really never gets to shoot with pros unless they show to a local ... At Lvl II & III matches there is almost always a super squad (or 2) which doesn't usually include the non elite shooters. So, while we can certainly get to watch them at our matches, and we are competing wit them, rarely do we get to actually shoot with them but I get what everyone's saying ... And agree ... What would be cool is a pro-am style event where 'pros' where randomly put on squads of amateurs .... I think that would generate a lot of interest ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsauerfan Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) Simple question - should true "amateur" shooters have to compete against "pros"? When I was involved in motor racing there was a pretty clear definition of who was an amateur and who was a pro. I spent a lot of time in motorcycle racing and never saw a clear definition and doubt there is one in any other form of racing either. well, i've spent 20 years in superbike racing both as rider then as race director on pro national events and yes, there's a clear line between pros and ams. ams gets red numbers, pros black ; pros need a national liscence to compete in pro national events ; then classes are divided so pros race against pros , ams against ams. pros are much faster on any given lap as well as race distance, this being due to experience and commitement as well as equipement since pros generally gets things for free, amateur has to pay from their own pockets for their equipement . generally sponsored GM's gets better equipement and are faster and more accurate than d class shooters because their greater commitment to the sport and sponsors . problem here is any D class shooter can and is ''allowed''' to beat a GM ,nothing prevent this to happens, therefore the notion of amateur-pro doesn't exist as both can compete in the same class and are scored equally without discrepancy based on their status. there's no pro and amateur in the shooting sport; climbing up the ranks is just a matter of practice and financial commitment to the sport. Edited February 20, 2016 by sigsauerfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Spent a lot of years in AMA superbike racing. Yes, need the pro license... All you need to do is pay for it. Pros and Amateurs practiced and raced together, same color plates, and once in a blue moon an amateur actually won. In this sport, I don't think the gun is what separates a pro from a D shooter. That D shooter can get just as good of a gun, and will still be a D shooter. In the end, if you don't want to compete against pros, just look at the results for your class. If you do want to compete against the best, look at all the scores... Pretty simple it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJquinn Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Shooting with Pros is a privilege and one of the coolest aspects of this sport. How much do golfers pay to be part of a PRO-AM tournament? I brag about this to everyone interested in the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Except that in a golf Pro-Am you are actually golfing with the pro because you're in the same foursome, right? As I said before, that style of Pro-Am would be way cool in shooting ... I've only shot one Pro-Am and it was the usual 'just shoot with your buddies' squadding. In fact, most of teh pros didn't shoot the same day as I did so I never even saw them ... How many of you out there have even shot one match where you were squadded with name 'pro' shooters ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Except that in a golf Pro-Am you are actually golfing with the pro because you're in the same foursome, right? As I said before, that style of Pro-Am would be way cool in shooting ... I've only shot one Pro-Am and it was the usual 'just shoot with your buddies' squadding. In fact, most of teh pros didn't shoot the same day as I did so I never even saw them ... How many of you out there have even shot one match where you were squadded with name 'pro' shooters ...? They never asked for me to join them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Except that in a golf Pro-Am you are actually golfing with the pro because you're in the same foursome, right? As I said before, that style of Pro-Am would be way cool in shooting ... I've only shot one Pro-Am and it was the usual 'just shoot with your buddies' squadding. In fact, most of teh pros didn't shoot the same day as I did so I never even saw them ... How many of you out there have even shot one match where you were squadded with name 'pro' shooters ...? I have, a lot, starting with Georgia State matches, IPSC Nationals, then Area 6, then Area 2, then Western States Single Stack. One of my most fun times was a Maryland/Virginia match where my friend and I were in a squad with a bunch of guys from Fort Bragg who were shooting Single Stack. It was pouring rain and lightning on our last stage in Fredericksburg, were all were standing in running water up to our ankles-they gave me a standing o because I was last shooter and really got drenched, after I asked the RO to drop the umbrella because of lightning. Different things make matches memorable. I don't like what has happened to SS Nationals-they used to never have Super Squads until Phil Strader. It was one of the appeals of the match. I have been squadded with some outstanding shooters that weren't Pro shooters, which is just as fun. The worst gamers were a bunch of retired school teachers at Area 2 the first time I went. I am not competing so much as shooting the best match I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Never at a nationals. I was squaded with Chris Tilley at the South Carolina state match about 3 years or so ago. Was fortunate enough to get squaded with Max Jr back when he was with the AMU at A6 one of the many years it was at South River. So not something that happens all that often, but sometimes you can be in the right place at the right time. I'll say I learned fair bit (plus it was cool to get to watch) both times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 How many of you out there have even shot one match where you were squadded with name 'pro' shooters ...? I've shot a lot of matches with Cha-Lee. It's good to be periodically reminded of what "fast" really looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I got to shoot with a couple pros yesterday. I could tell they were pros by the expensive custom blouses they wore, with all their sponsors names. They shot pretty well, which you'd expect since they get paid to shoot all day and get free guns and ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Except that in a golf Pro-Am you are actually golfing with the pro because you're in the same foursome, right? As I said before, that style of Pro-Am would be way cool in shooting ... I've only shot one Pro-Am and it was the usual 'just shoot with your buddies' squadding. In fact, most of teh pros didn't shoot the same day as I did so I never even saw them ... How many of you out there have even shot one match where you were squadded with name 'pro' shooters ...? Shooting A6 this year and my squad has 4 GM's and 4 M. So I'll be shooting that match with Dave Sevigny. I've also shot matches squadded with Mink, Vogel, E Langdon, G Shelby, R Rogers, G Carrol. Edited February 22, 2016 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 How many of you out there have even shot one match where you were squadded with name 'pro' shooters ...? I squadded with mike gnyra, brent lorton and manny bragg at SS nationals. there were a couple other big-time gm's on the squad too. Also squadded with chuck A at production nats, along with 4-5 other gm's. Most of them had expensive custom blouses, so I know they were professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Well I think the 3 of you who have should consider yourselves very lucky as I'm willing to bet for the overwhelming majority of any of our 25,000 members who shoot level II & above the answer would be a resounding 'no' .... While we certainly compete with them at matches we don't shoot with them .... Which is a shame ... Edited February 22, 2016 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) In USPSA pistol matches, I have shot with 5 top 16 National level GMs: Cha-Lee, Bob Krogh, Dave Sevigny, Chris Tilley, and Nils. I have RO'd a lot more than I have shot with though. I would still contend that ROing a stage at Nationals is the best "free" class you will ever get. In 3Gun, the list is too long, but I am pretty sure I have been squadded with all of the top 25 or so except Keith Garcia, and a bunch of other top shooters as well. Edited February 22, 2016 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I assume you realize how lucky you are to have been able to have done that .... I agree that being able to RO at Nationals is another great way to have access to our 'Pros' but from my limited view of the world of ROs it 'appears' that is a somewhat long road to get to as well .... maybe I'm completely off-base but I would assume that not just any RO can apply & be picked up to go to Nationals, right? There is some kind of vetting/experience process to get selected? I know around this neck of the woods I'd see the same ROs at most of the level II matches which tells me there are not a tremendous amount of 'job openings' to garner the experience necessary to get selected for things like the Nationals ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) When I was B class, I would write a polite request on the registration form to be squadded with the best shooters I knew were going to the match. More often than not, I would be squadded with them. Don't think it's necessarily luck, you usually won't get things you don't ask for. I would usually sit back and watch everything they did, if possible I'd tag behind them the day before when they were looking over stages. I'm sure I was insufferable, but I learned a ton and tried to be unobtrusive. Edited February 22, 2016 by Jake Di Vita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) I agree that's probably a reasonable strategy when you're talking about what I'll lightly refer to as '2nd tier' pros but do you really believe that's viable with the 'name' shooters everyone is familiar with ... Max, KC, Ben, Vogel, Nils, etc, etc ...? Obviously for the average shooter they are still going to learn more than they can probably process even from my '2nd tier' pros but there is a difference between being put on Tiger Wood's foursome vs the state champion club pro from Florida at the US Open ... Edited February 22, 2016 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I don't know about today, but back when I did it it was usually with the AMU guys or the Limcat guys at the time. So that's Max, Travis, KC, and JJ right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I agree that's probably a reasonable strategy when you're talking about what I'll lightly refer to as '2nd tier' pros but do you really believe that's viable with the 'name' shooters everyone is familiar with ... Max, KC, Ben, Vogel, Nils, etc, etc ...? Obviously for the average shooter they are still going to learn more than they can probably process even from my '2nd tier' pros but there is a difference between being put on Tiger Wood's foursome vs the state champion club pro from Florida at the US Open ... Yes, the bolded part is important. I think shooting with someone who is significantly better than you is more useful than shooting with someone who is on a whole 'nother planet. But the autographs probably aren't worth as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now