What makes a "good" 3g rifle? (long post, sorry)

[Singletracker]

OK Gang,

Sorry for the long post. I'm very new to the 3 gun game but I've been having a lot of fun.

Mid-pack shooter but have had a few "flashes of brilliance" on some stages that lets me know I can do better. I do know that my current rifle is not holding me back...but.

My son has also started shooting with me (along with my best friends son who is my son's best friend, if that makes sense). Our match director has started a "Junior" division for the boys running M&P 15/22s and 20ga pumps.

So, at 12, my son is a pretty big boy, at 5'6 and 130# (+/-) so he is already bugging me about moving up to 9mm/5.56/12ga next season. (That breeze is the money flying out of my wallet!)

So, onto the question. My current rig is a Palmetto carbine length/16in upper on an 80% lower. Just a few do-dads, certainly not a race gun.

At this point, I think that rifle may go to Jr. and dad will upgrade (since the boy is going to need a 12ga shotgun too!) since the only other AR in the safe is an SBR I need to expand the heard.

So I know this is a no-right answer question, but here goes?

What makes for a "good" 3 gun AR?

Build or buy? Would I be $$ ahead by just going with something like an Armalite that is pretty much ready to go?

I have a few months

[P.E. Kelley]

Armalite and Barnes are both good guns at fair prices. Neither needs anything to win a match and both will run as delivered.

Doublestar and Stag both have 3G AR's at a little lower price point that should do the trick too.

Build? You bet! And the boys get to learn about the guns and you will make use of the tools for many years with upgrades and changes of mind.

Forget all about "RACE GUN" that is a BS term, the gun you are racing with is a Race gun. A minute and a half carbine, with a good trigger can win. Spend the money on AMMO and time shooting it.

Edited December 14, 2015 by P.E. Kelley

[Moltke]

If you get a ready to go out of the box "3 gun rifle" (aka race gun!), zero it and tune it, then it's probably going to be a long time before you need to upgrade anything

Personally, I've been very happy with my Armalite 13 and 18 since I got them

Edited December 15, 2015 by Moltke

[Steve RA]

With the end of the season more people will start selling their present 3G rifle and you might find what you want at less than going prices for new.

[Stlhead]

Try out other peoples guns if at all possible before committing. All of the diversity in the possible configurations is no accident. People like different stuff. I know how I like my guns, but you may like something totally different. Not sure how much good it would be to share my favorite, but you are welcome to shoot anything I have, and I am certain others would be willing to share as well.

[IntenseImage]

I'll make this "easy" ... You want to know what makes a good 3gun rifle, well it comes down to 2 things:

1. Is it reliable

And

2. Are you able to get hits with it

Everything else is just fluff

Edited December 14, 2015 by IntenseImage

[kurtm]

What makes a good 3-gun rifle? The guy driving it!!!!

[chuck s]

A great trigger, a decent comp and a mid or rifle length gas system on any name brand AR will do just fine.

[3gunDQ]

^this

Your rifle needs to fit you and be tuned to your liking... Pick a barrel for contour and weight you can manage and drive quickly. I recommend exploring your options for optics (per division) and or irons. The optic and/or sights need to be what works for you and not what we like. If in practical I recomend something with holdovers and illumination.

[bradhall]

^Yep, amazing what a trigger and comp will do for even the most basic carbine

[MarkCO]

If you have a choice within your budget of a $600 AR and 3K rounds of ammo or $1600 AR and one box of ammo, there is no doubt which one you will be better with when the ammo is gone. If you want to get better, practice can take you from 50% to 100% whereas gear can take you from 50% to 55%.

A good reliable AR and shotgun can be used for 2 or 3 shooters in a match no problem. My son and I shot his AR for most of RM3G and a few times we have gone to local matches with one set of guns and both shot them. Get him a 9mm pistol and share and AR and a shotgun for a year. If he does well and shoots a few majors, he might have enough to build his own AR. My 14 year old built his own AR from winnings and horse trading what he got off prize tables from matches.

What 3Gunners do best...encourage other 3gunners to buy more gear when it is not really needed.

[aquaticvisions]

Yeah, what Mark said. Share guns. Put a few people between you in the rotation on your squad so you have time to get your gear organized.

[StealthyBlagga]

Sharing long guns is a good idea if you are on a tight budget. As well as buying ammo, spend some of the money you save on belt gear, especially shotshell caddies, as sharing these can be an inconvenient distraction. Make sure you and your son give the question of brand/type of caddy some serious thought as they are expensive and a very personal choice.

If you do still want to buy him a rifle, right now is a great time to be building an AR15. Prices have not been this low in years - if you shop around a decent AR can be put together for under $500. Given his size, you likely want to lean towards a shorter and lighter setup right now. As he grows, he may want to migrate to a longer/heavier rifle. If you build your own rifle, you will have the tools to make those changes incrementally.

Here is the setup I built for my two sons when they were the same age and size as your boy:

- Forged stripped lower receiver, M4 stock/buffer tube/CAR buffer, GI trigger with clipped springs (cheap way to lighten the trigger)

- Forged flat top upper receiver

- 16" midlength lightweight (government or pencil profile) barrel, cut down GI front sight base

- Inexpensive rifle-length free float tube (DPMS, Model 1) wrapped with paracord

- Inexpensive brake (DPMS Miculek, Nordic Corvette)

- GI M16 bolt carrier group

- Weaver V3 1-3x scope (LINK) and inexpensive mount (LINK)

These guns have served them well. As my elder son grew and won parts on prize tables (match triggers, furniture etc.), we upgraded his rifle incrementally, but the basic foundation is the same.

Edited December 15, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[Warkitz]

We had a couple of stages here and there with doors. Opening a door with a really heavy 13 inch rail is terrible. I would suggest some sort of super light weight rail system and that's about it.

[MarkCO]

With ELS or TMMS, you can share mag pouches and caddies as well. With 2nd son, 3rd shooter coming on line in 2016, we are sharing more and more gear.

[StealthyBlagga]

With ELS or TMMS, you can share mag pouches and caddies as well. With 2nd son, 3rd shooter coming on line in 2016, we are sharing more and more gear.

Agreed - ELS helps us with speed of change, but having to plan to share equipment still causes a mental distraction when both of us should be focusing on visualization. We make it work, but it is not ideal.

[T Bacus]

For me, these are the four most important attributes of a three gun rifle.

1. Scope. Shooting is a visual game. The better you can see the target the better you will do. Wide field of view, excellent clarity and generous eye relief make seeing the target easy, and seeing the target is the first step in hitting it.

2. Trigger. Once you can see the target a good trigger makes it easier to hit. Light pull weight and a good re-set allow for rapid engagement of targets.

3. Compensator/Muzzle Break. A good comp allows you to better utilize you scope and trigger when engaging targets rapidly.

4. Barrel. I think 200 yards is the distance at which the quality of your barrel begins to become important. If you happen to shoot in an area where 200 yards is the maximum range then any decent factory barrel is good enough. If your local meta is 300 yards and out, then a quality match barrel becomes almost mandatory.

Anyway, this is my opinion, based on my years of competition. The experience of others will of course produce different results, but the above is a good place to start.

Tim

[TonytheTiger]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned flashy color schemes yet? It's the single most important attribute to looking awesome regardless of personal or mechanical performance. And everyone knows looking cool is the key to success.

[adamge]

If you have a choice within your budget of a $600 AR and 3K rounds of ammo or $1600 AR and one box of ammo, there is no doubt which one you will be better with when the ammo is gone. If you want to get better, practice can take you from 50% to 100% whereas gear can take you from 50% to 55%.

A good reliable AR and shotgun can be used for 2 or 3 shooters in a match no problem. My son and I shot his AR for most of RM3G and a few times we have gone to local matches with one set of guns and both shot them. Get him a 9mm pistol and share and AR and a shotgun for a year. If he does well and shoots a few majors, he might have enough to build his own AR. My 14 year old built his own AR from winnings and horse trading what he got off prize tables from matches.

What 3Gunners do best...encourage other 3gunners to buy more gear when it is not really needed.

I do love spending other peoples' money.

[biglou13]

I'm a novice..

1. Comp/ brake.... It takes the bite out of carbine.... I'm amazed more people aren't suggesting. With recent comp,change I'm equal to if not faster on spits and traditions compared to pistola

1. Tied for first place more ammo. Either reload and/ or get a .22 adapter. There is no replacement for rounds down ramge and training time. I've been out of the army for over 20 years.... Many of those fundamentals , keep me ahead of many in the game.....

Also reloads tuned to your rifle/ barrel greatly increases

3. Trigger.... I have only done the spring, bob and polish job. Aka poor mans trigger job... My trigger is about 4 # and crisp...it's good enough for now...when you need a high end trigger if ever. You'll know

4. Bi pod or bags/ belly / bench time..... Slow controlled fire practicing trigger control and sight alignment is prolly most under trained drill, scope, iron, dot,

5. Shot timer...... Yeah most of my answers aren't rifle related. there is no replacment for training under stress.

You can't fix bad marksmanship with a $ 5000 custom stick

[GregSmith]

Tales from the Gear Whore...

OK, I admit it SingleTracker, I'm THAT guy. I like the coolest crap, I gravitate toward threads that start with "What's the best...?" My wife works in the firearms industry so sometimes I get "perks". If I had paid for everything on my rifle (including the fancy paint job, which I wouldn't trade for the world for sentimental reasons) my rifle would cost two to three times what my skill level deserves. I do have my budget limitations, I run a glock but there's a point to my story.

LISTEN TO WHAT EVERYONE ABOVE ME WROTE!

For all my fancy shmancy part of my rifle, I would need to be a pro shooter to even notice a difference. I'm most definitely a middle of the pack shooter. Practicing is rough. Life has thrown my family a few curveballs, but more importantly, ammo costs money. Being a gear whore, I LOVE every part of my rifle, but at my level, when the timer goes BEEP I can't tell the difference between my Geissele trigger on my .308 and my Hiperfire 24c trigger on my .223. I probably couldn't feel the difference between my really cool compensator that I have and any other compensator out there. I'm barely good enough to know which reticles I like on my optics. Admitedly, this is pretty lame of me, but the ability to feel those subtle differences comes with more time behind the rifle than I have at this point.

What I should do... is shoot 40,000 more rounds and do 20 more matches. I SHOULD HAVE listened to all of the smart people on this forum. Cool stuff is fun and it's SO SO tempting to learn about it and buy it. I love learning about it for knowledge. I could pick parts to build top end rifles in 6-10 different configurations, but I didn't need to know that to shoot a match, I didn't need to know that to have fun shooting matches and I won't need to know that until my skill level gets about 500% better.

Learn from my... I wouldn't call them mistakes, but not very efficient or productive choices and build something affordable, get an Armalite (great rifle for the price, the handguard is super light and the compensator looks cool and is tunable.) or build something fun and affordable...and spend the rest on ammo and match fees.

I will echo what other's have said about what makes a good 3-gun rifle, I would say a good barrel, trigger, compensator and an optic that you understand and can use effectively. These have varying weights of importance depending on the match you shoot, the distances etc. But the best answer, also stated above, is a good shooter, so make sure you save enough in the budget for ammo and save enough time to practice. I also found that having a good friend/mentor to walk you through things in the beginning is invaluable.

My name is Greg, and I'm a gun-gear-a-holic.

Edited December 16, 2015 by GregSmith

[Stlhead]

Claps for Greg and pats him on back as he goes back to his seat.

[GregSmith]

Thanks Stlhead. The first time is the hardest. One day at a time... right?

[Singletracker]

Thanks everyone.

Kinda supported my thoughts. Yes, I'm a gear whore. Financially, I think I'll work at getting him a shotgun first as the VMax is a bit big for him.

We can share the rifle and he's already called dibs on one of the M&Ps in the safe.

I think I'll either go with another 80% lower as I have a couple of blanks in the garage yet to be milled. Maybe pick up an upper from Armalite or from Mark over at Carbon.

I appreciate the input.

[Novock]

Give me a reliable, accurate, soft shooting rifle with good ergonomics and I am usually happy.

Trigger is key. I like the JP EZ trigger myself, but find what works best for you. A good comp is helpful and I just started running an SLR adjustable gas block so i can tune my gun to the loads i am running and man is it soft shooting.

solid trigger, barrel and comp minimum and a stock and grip that work for you and fine tune the rest.