Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[PPGMD]

Now my opinion on NFA is that it shouldn't be allowed. It is a competitive advantage that will favor certain people over others. Same with the carbine "pistols." People from non-NFA states would have a difficult time owning a SBR. But even for California residents with off list lowers, and the fact it isn't illegal to own a normal mag release allows them to convert their guns when they leave the state.

All pistol caliber carbines should be legally rifles. That evens the playing field. And even the SBRs can compete, just slap a non-NFA barrel/upper on it

And don't think I am against NFA guns, I currently don't have an AR that isn't a SBR.

Edited January 9, 2016 by PPGMD

[Gooldylocks]

A holster could be practical, (dont you see the picture? That ciuld work!) all it has to do is fully cover the trigger guard and retain the handgun. "Fore grips" to me is in reference to a vertical grip, which is illegal without a tax stamp anyway. So why not just declare open?

Where is a vertical grip illegal and require a "tax stamp" it certainly is not a federal ban. Perhaps some crazy state law where you live?

The atf says you're wrong. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download&ved=0ahUKEwiVobGxkpzKAhUS7GMKHYOsC0kQFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNFvIG3Ql2jpAi3-xVfW-NTW1pX_JQ&sig2=riXuRBuD8191aLNOaVQhhQ

[hornetx40]

Now my opinion on NFA is that it shouldn't be allowed. It is a competitive advantage that will favor certain people over others. Same with the carbine "pistols." People from non-NFA states would have a difficult time owning a SBR. But even for California residents with off list lowers, and the fact it isn't illegal to own a normal mag release allows them to convert their guns when they leave the state.

All pistol caliber carbines should be legally rifles. That evens the playing field. And even the SBRs can compete, just slap a non-NFA barrel/upper on it

And don't think I am against NFA guns, I currently don't have an AR that isn't a SBR.

NFA SBR's are legal to use in SCSA in rim fire. SBR's should also be allowed in PCC. If someone wants to pay to have an SBR why should they be disallowed from using it. Its no different from buying a $5000 pistol in Open while competing against $1200 self built guns. Someone is always going to cry because they don't have the same bells and whistles, usually because they don't want to spend the money. The truth is good shooters will always do better no matter what level of gun in their hand. PCC is another open category. let it be truly open with out arbitrary limits. It's not a production gun.

[alma]

Yes, NFA SBRs should be allowed. Otherwise I would have to buy another MPX since I am SBRing the one I have. In the scenario described even dropping a 16" upper on my NFA SBR wouldn't be legal.

Edited January 9, 2016 by alma

[PPGMD]

Now my opinion on NFA is that it shouldn't be allowed. It is a competitive advantage that will favor certain people over others. Same with the carbine "pistols." People from non-NFA states would have a difficult time owning a SBR. But even for California residents with off list lowers, and the fact it isn't illegal to own a normal mag release allows them to convert their guns when they leave the state.

All pistol caliber carbines should be legally rifles. That evens the playing field. And even the SBRs can compete, just slap a non-NFA barrel/upper on it

And don't think I am against NFA guns, I currently don't have an AR that isn't a SBR.

NFA SBR's are legal to use in SCSA in rim fire. SBR's should also be allowed in PCC. If someone wants to pay to have an SBR why should they be disallowed from using it. Its no different from buying a $5000 pistol in Open while competing against $1200 self built guns. Someone is always going to cry because they don't have the same bells and whistles, usually because they don't want to spend the money. The truth is good shooters will always do better no matter what level of gun in their hand. PCC is another open category. let it be truly open with out arbitrary limits. It's not a production gun.

There are no laws stopping the person building a $1,200 self built pistol from having the same features at the $5,000 custom pistol. But in at least a half a dozen states where SBR ownership is prohibited, including in the state that USPSA HQ is located. That leaves a competitive inequity for people living in those states as there will be more situations where a SBR would be useful than not (unless the course of fire was designed with 16" barrels in mind).

As far as SCSA, SBRs don't create a competitive inequity there as there are no walls to navigate around.

Yes, NFA SBRs should be allowed. Otherwise I would have to buy another MPX since I am SBRing the one I have. In the scenario described even dropping a 16" upper on my NFA SBR wouldn't be legal.

Per the ATF if you put a 16" upper on a SBR it isn't considered a SBR for the purposes of transportation (ie you don't have to file a 5320.20). The USPSA can consider it the same way, your upper needs to be a minimum of 16" in length, and a less barrel length with a muzzle device that reaches 16" counts to (so the guns with shorter barrel lengths and pinned muzzle devices can count to). They don't care if it is registered as a SBR, as long as you don't shoot the match with a sub-16" barrel.

And if it becomes enough of a problem that we would have to test it, testing barrel length is pretty easy. You just need a brass rod that will fit down the barrel with 16" marked on it. If you can see the mark sticking out the barrel is too short. This is similar to the way that the ATF tests barrel length.

Edited January 9, 2016 by PPGMD

[MarkCO]

I would not be in favor of barrel length restrictions. There are trade-offs and a 10" barreled upper will have some trade-offs with a 16" barreled upper, but not enough to matter. If it makes a huge difference to someone, they should practice more.

[Sarge]

AND, there's always the fact that we are debating something that doesn't even exist yet.

[PPGMD]

I would not be in favor of barrel length restrictions. There are trade-offs and a 10" barreled upper will have some trade-offs with a 16" barreled upper, but not enough to matter. If it makes a huge difference to someone, they should practice more.

Within the courses of fires that they would be used within USPSA from a pure shooting stand point a 10" isn't at a disadvantage over a 16" gun. Within 3 gun due to the longer distance stages there is a true trade off between SBR and non-SBR.

OTOH when it comes to moving throughout a stage a SBR is clearly a better choice. Moving around a shoot house with a SBR is so much easier than with a 16" gun.

AND, there's always the fact that we are debating something that doesn't even exist yet.

The new USPSA President has come out and said that he would be in favor of allowing PCC in USPSA. So it isn't like we are discussing something that has zero chance of happening.

[MarkCO]

Eh, have some shoot house's with 10 and 16 inch ARs, the only difference comes from lights and lasers.

[Sarge]

I would not be in favor of barrel length restrictions. There are trade-offs and a 10" barreled upper will have some trade-offs with a 16" barreled upper, but not enough to matter. If it makes a huge difference to someone, they should practice more.

Within the courses of fires that they would be used within USPSA from a pure shooting stand point a 10" isn't at a disadvantage over a 16" gun. Within 3 gun due to the longer distance stages there is a true trade off between SBR and non-SBR.

OTOH when it comes to moving throughout a stage a SBR is clearly a better choice. Moving around a shoot house with a SBR is so much easier than with a 16" gun.

AND, there's always the fact that we are debating something that doesn't even exist yet.

The new USPSA President has come out and said that he would be in favor of allowing PCC in USPSA. So it isn't like we are discussing something that has zero chance of happening.

I said the same thing over on another forum. Sure there's a chance it may become a reality but it's not yet. And the rules certainly won't be based off of one guy on a forum saying I only have an SBR so they should be legal.

I'm sure it would be just like any other introduction of a new division. We will all have ideas of how it should be and what gets proposed won't look anything like that.

[Manwithnoname]

In the same vein as barrel length would supressors be included? I have a 10" 9mm sbr. If I were to run it in a PCC division I would want to run it with my 6" can on it. That would bring it to 16" but would having a supressors on a rifle create a competitive advantage? If a supressors creates a competitive advantage would a comp do the same?

[PPGMD]

I would not be in favor of barrel length restrictions. There are trade-offs and a 10" barreled upper will have some trade-offs with a 16" barreled upper, but not enough to matter. If it makes a huge difference to someone, they should practice more.

Within the courses of fires that they would be used within USPSA from a pure shooting stand point a 10" isn't at a disadvantage over a 16" gun. Within 3 gun due to the longer distance stages there is a true trade off between SBR and non-SBR.

OTOH when it comes to moving throughout a stage a SBR is clearly a better choice. Moving around a shoot house with a SBR is so much easier than with a 16" gun.

AND, there's always the fact that we are debating something that doesn't even exist yet.

The new USPSA President has come out and said that he would be in favor of allowing PCC in USPSA. So it isn't like we are discussing something that has zero chance of happening.

I said the same thing over on another forum. Sure there's a chance it may become a reality but it's not yet. And the rules certainly won't be based off of one guy on a forum saying I only have an SBR so they should be legal.

I'm sure it would be just like any other introduction of a new division. We will all have ideas of how it should be and what gets proposed won't look anything like that.

Except I am actually arguing the opposite. I have only SBRs and I believe that they shouldn't be legal.

We know that at least the USPSA President reads here I wouldn't be surprised if most of the area directors do. So our arguing might actually be heard unlike in other shootings sports.

In the same vein as barrel length would supressors be included? I have a 10" 9mm sbr. If I were to run it in a PCC division I would want to run it with my 6" can on it. That would bring it to 16" but would having a supressors on a rifle create a competitive advantage? If a supressors creates a competitive advantage would a comp do the same?

IMO if the can brings it up to 16" I don't see why not. It doesn't really give you much of an advantage that just throwing a heavy barrel wouldn't give you. And comps are widely accepted on rifles.

But OTOH you might have issues with your shots registering.

[Nebwake]

A holster could be practical, (dont you see the picture? That ciuld work!) all it has to do is fully cover the trigger guard and retain the handgun. "Fore grips" to me is in reference to a vertical grip, which is illegal without a tax stamp anyway. So why not just declare open?

Where is a vertical grip illegal and require a "tax stamp" it certainly is not a federal ban. Perhaps some crazy state law where you live?

The atf says you're wrong. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download&ved=0ahUKEwiVobGxkpzKAhUS7GMKHYOsC0kQFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNFvIG3Ql2jpAi3-xVfW-NTW1pX_JQ&sig2=riXuRBuD8191aLNOaVQhhQ

I thought we were talking about a carbine (rifle configuration) not a pistol. Still that is news to me... What a BS rule.

[Nebwake]

I would not be in favor of barrel length restrictions. There are trade-offs and a 10" barreled upper will have some trade-offs with a 16" barreled upper, but not enough to matter. If it makes a huge difference to someone, they should practice more.

Within the courses of fires that they would be used within USPSA from a pure shooting stand point a 10" isn't at a disadvantage over a 16" gun. Within 3 gun due to the longer distance stages there is a true trade off between SBR and non-SBR.

OTOH when it comes to moving throughout a stage a SBR is clearly a better choice. Moving around a shoot house with a SBR is so much easier than with a 16" gun.

AND, there's always the fact that we are debating something that doesn't even exist yet.

The new USPSA President has come out and said that he would be in favor of allowing PCC in USPSA. So it isn't like we are discussing something that has zero chance of happening.

I said the same thing over on another forum. Sure there's a chance it may become a reality but it's not yet. And the rules certainly won't be based off of one guy on a forum saying I only have an SBR so they should be legal.

I'm sure it would be just like any other introduction of a new division. We will all have ideas of how it should be and what gets proposed won't look anything like that.

Except I am actually arguing the opposite. I have only SBRs and I believe that they shouldn't be legal.

We know that at least the USPSA President reads here I wouldn't be surprised if most of the area directors do. So our arguing might actually be heard unlike in other shootings sports.

In the same vein as barrel length would supressors be included? I have a 10" 9mm sbr. If I were to run it in a PCC division I would want to run it with my 6" can on it. That would bring it to 16" but would having a supressors on a rifle create a competitive advantage? If a supressors creates a competitive advantage would a comp do the same?

IMO if the can brings it up to 16" I don't see why not. It doesn't really give you much of an advantage that just throwing a heavy barrel wouldn't give you. And comps are widely accepted on rifles.

But OTOH you might have issues with your shots registering.

AS far as silencers registering, we have had guys run silenced .22 rifles in SC that registered. It was a bit tough, but the registered the shots all the same. The RO just had to hold the timer closer to the shooter.

[MarkCO]

Or use a CED7000. They pick up my CO2 bb guns with the sensitivity set right.

[Nimitz]

I'd rather not see carbines at USPSA matches.

If they want to do something where they have a side match afterwards or the following day, I'm all for it.

I have nothing against the carbines. I'm in the process of going the SBR route on a Sig MPX right now.

But we already have enough divisions as it is.

If you want to shoot rifles, find a 3-gun, multi-gun or rifle match.

There is the first nay sayer I've seen

Nah, I think I'm a nah sayer as well ... Just didn't want to get into a big debate about it .... We are the United States Practical PISTOL Association after all ... There are plenty of pistol related things to argue about like Carry Optics, eliminating L10, fixing Steel Challenge, etc that I think we should stay away from long guns but it's not like my opinion on this will make any difference and since I don't plan to buy a PCC I'm not going to sweat it ... But feel free to refer to me as PCCNS#2 .... Edited January 9, 2016 by Nimitz

[revoman]

Actually the United States Practical Shooting Association, USPSA ?

[PPGMD]

Untied States Practical Pistol Association, that is the USPPA. This forum is for IPSC/USPSA. I think you can talk about USPPA in the "Other shooting sports" forum.

[Sarge]

I'd rather not see carbines at USPSA matches.

If they want to do something where they have a side match afterwards or the following day, I'm all for it.

I have nothing against the carbines. I'm in the process of going the SBR route on a Sig MPX right now.

But we already have enough divisions as it is.

If you want to shoot rifles, find a 3-gun, multi-gun or rifle match.

There is the first nay sayer I've seen

Nah, I think I'm a nah sayer as well ... Just didn't want to get into a big debate about it .... We are the United States Practical PISTOL Association after all ... There are plenty of pistol related things to argue about like Carry Optics, eliminating L10, fixing Steel Challenge, etc that I think we should stay away from long guns but it's not like my opinion on this will make any difference and since I don't plan to buy a PCC I'm not going to sweat it ... But feel free to refer to me as PCCNS#2 ....

So you're saying you want keep arguing about welfare optics?

FYI USPSA does not have pistol in the name anywhere. And don't forget about USPSA multigun.

[Alaskapopo]

Eh, have some shoot house's with 10 and 16 inch ARs, the only difference comes from lights and lasers.

This is correct. The way most stages are built there are not enough confining spaces to give an SBR any advantage. Even in real life its not hard to move around with 16 inch carbines or even 18 inch shotguns

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Why should anyone be against it. Don't like carbines don't shoot them. Done enough said. But let those of us who do shoot them. No skin off your nose.
Pat

[Gooldylocks]

Why should anyone be against it. Don't like carbines don't shoot them. Done enough said. But let those of us who do shoot them. No skin off your nose.

Pat

But what about the watering down off the competition??? (quoth the whiners)

[Alaskapopo]

Why should anyone be against it. Don't like carbines don't shoot them. Done enough said. But let those of us who do shoot them. No skin off your nose.

Pat

But what about the watering down off the competition??? (quoth the whiners)

I think they should also allow 2 divisions to be shot unless its a major match. So it should not water it down. I see it as a fun way to get practice with a rifle and a lot of fun.

[sperman]

Just to play devil's advocate, allowing PCC at a pistol match would require a pretty major re-write of the rulebook, not to mention educating RO's to the new rules. I'm not saying that is insurmountable, but its not like adding a new pistol division.

[MarkCO]

Not a major re-write, maybe three sentences. One for bringing the gun to the line, one for the standard start position, one for taking the gun from the stage after showing clear.

We do it in Steel Challenge, and no one has lost their mind. We have done it several times at pistol matches, and no one has lost their mind.