Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[pskys2]

PCC would be a better fit in Multi Gun, not the Pistol competition.

Maybe including it into USPSA Multi-Gun competition would help USPSA compete against the 3 gun nation multi-gun competitions.

Pistol competition should stay a Handgun, not a shoulder fired weapon, competition.

[d_striker]

Stages are biased towards fast close shooting now, but they used to have stages that stressed accuracy. I remember shooting 50 and 80 yard standards stages back when there were just 2 divisions.

50-80 yard targets just doesn't seem "practical" to me.

[diver60540]

This is probably the biggest reason that a rule change will need to be made:

5.1.10 Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited.

Since there is no carbine division, the shooter cannot comply with this:

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

And if you get past that, since a holster is probably not practical, all stages in the match would have to be table starts.

Couldn't you start from the low ready or table? At least you could then use the same stage set ups as pistol.

I don't see how it would work without it's own division; pistol not rifle caliber carbine

[RangerTrace]

PCC would be a better fit in Multi Gun, not the Pistol competition.

Maybe including it into USPSA Multi-Gun competition would help USPSA compete against the 3 gun nation multi-gun competitions.

Pistol competition should stay a Handgun, not a shoulder fired weapon, competition.

Why would it matter as long as you were competing against other PCCs?

[ChuckS]

PCC would be a better fit in Multi Gun, not the Pistol competition.

Maybe including it into USPSA Multi-Gun competition would help USPSA compete against the 3 gun nation multi-gun competitions.

Pistol competition should stay a Handgun, not a shoulder fired weapon, competition.

Why would it matter as long as you were competing against other PCCs?

If PCC pushes stage design to favor test PCC equipment capabilities at the expense of pistol, it is probably not the wisest move to mix the two.

Edited December 13, 2015 by ChuckS

[wgj3]

No need to change stuff for the new division. PCC is not particularly relevent in 3-Gun because you already have a pistol in that format. Also, the PCC is not ideal for the more distant targets in 3-gun/Multigun.

The "P" in USPSA is not for Pistol...

[ChuckS]

Stages are biased towards fast close shooting now, but they used to have stages that stressed accuracy. I remember shooting 50 and 80 yard standards stages back when there were just 2 divisions.

I remember shooting 50 yard standards last month.

[herky]

I'll wager you are in the minority on shooting 50 yards standards these days. I can't remember the last time I did.

Back in the

late 80's and early 90's that was not the case. 50 yards showed up a lot more often, even at local matches and was in

almost every area and nationals.

PCC is a hoot to shoot on an USPSA COF, would like to see it more often.

[ChuckS]

I'll wager you are in the minority on shooting 50 yards standards these days.

Yup, only one match, the WSSSC, so it is pretty much once a year

[d_striker]

No need to change stuff for the new division. PCC is not particularly relevent in 3-Gun because you already have a pistol in that format. Also, the PCC is not ideal for the more distant targets in 3-gun/Multigun.

The "P" in USPSA is not for Pistol...

I agree but just to play devil's advocate....

It stands for "Practical." With the origins of the sport in mind, is it practical for you to carry around a carbine all day while you go about your day to day business?

[2MoreChains]

PCC would be a better fit in Multi Gun, not the Pistol competition.

Maybe including it into USPSA Multi-Gun competition would help USPSA compete against the 3 gun nation multi-gun competitions.

Pistol competition should stay a Handgun, not a shoulder fired weapon, competition.

Why would it matter as long as you were competing against other PCCs?

If PCC pushes stage design to favor test PCC equipment capabilities at the expense of pistol, it is probably not the wisest move to mix the two.

That's a good point, but I think the conventional pistol shooter will continue to be the main audience at our matches and will still drive stage design. Then again, its easy to tell when a left-hander shooter designs a stage... LOL.

I'm thinking about side matches at our local club to test the waters, plus I think it would be fun. We used to offer side matches after the main match for those that wanted to run their ARs (.223/5.56) but always had to remove the steel since we were going by pistol guidelines (23-26'). But with pistol caliber carbines, that wouldn't be neccessary.

Currently we have 2 Carry-Optics attendees at our locals. If PCC were to become a division I can see a handful of people crossing over from the other divisions but I can also see attracting a new type of shooter that isn't already in USPSA. Cost-wise, its not prohibitive to buy/build one of these which is another good thing.

[2MoreChains]

No need to change stuff for the new division. PCC is not particularly relevent in 3-Gun because you already have a pistol in that format. Also, the PCC is not ideal for the more distant targets in 3-gun/Multigun.

The "P" in USPSA is not for Pistol...

I agree but just to play devil's advocate....

It stands for "Practical." With the origins of the sport in mind, is it practical for you to carry around a carbine all day while you go about your day to day business?

What happens if you apply that same logic to Open?

[d_striker]

No need to change stuff for the new division. PCC is not particularly relevent in 3-Gun because you already have a pistol in that format. Also, the PCC is not ideal for the more distant targets in 3-gun/Multigun.

The "P" in USPSA is not for Pistol...

I agree but just to play devil's advocate....

It stands for "Practical." With the origins of the sport in mind, is it practical for you to carry around a carbine all day while you go about your day to day business?

What happens if you apply that same logic to Open?

Alright, you got me. Good point.

One could still probably get away with carrying an Open pistol though.

Edited December 13, 2015 by d_striker

[2MoreChains]

No need to change stuff for the new division. PCC is not particularly relevent in 3-Gun because you already have a pistol in that format. Also, the PCC is not ideal for the more distant targets in 3-gun/Multigun.

The "P" in USPSA is not for Pistol...

I agree but just to play devil's advocate....

It stands for "Practical." With the origins of the sport in mind, is it practical for you to carry around a carbine all day while you go about your day to day business?

What happens if you apply that same logic to Open?

Alright, you got me. Good point.

One could still probably get away with carrying an Open pistol though.

Trench coats and food courts go hand in hand, don't they? LOL

[StealthyBlagga]

I think the idea is that PCC would simply be another division shooting the same courses of fire as pistols. The whole point is to broaden the audience for EXISTING matches without having to do any extra setup work, and perhaps to add a spark for folks who may be a little bored/burned out with pistol. With this in mind, it makes no sense to push the distances out beyond what is reasonable for pistol shooters, who will continue to be the main consumers. If MDs want to do that, they can run a separate PCC-only match, as one of our matches does... pistol in the morning, carbine in the afternoon.

I'd love for this to happen, at least as a provisional division, but fear it might not because USPSA is so pistol-centric, hidebound and risk-averse.

Edited December 13, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[gose]

I think the idea is that PCC would simply be another division shooting the same courses of fire as pistols. The whole point is to broaden the audience for EXISTING matches without having to do any extra setup work, and perhaps to add a spark for folks who may be a little bored/burned out with pistol. With this in mind, it makes no sense to push the distances out beyond what is reasonable for pistol shooters, who will continue to be the main consumers. If MDs want to do that, they can run a separate PCC-only match, as one of our matches does... pistol in the morning, carbine in the afternoon.

I'd love for this to happen, at least as a provisional division, but fear it might not because USPSA is so pistol-centric, hidebound and risk-averse.

If you have the berms/bays, it wouldnt be too hard to throw in an extra target/steel at a little more distance here and there for the PCC guys, if you wanted.

[StealthyBlagga]

If you have the berms/bays, it wouldnt be too hard to throw in an extra target/steel at a little more distance here and there for the PCC guys, if you wanted.

Indeed, but I would not advocate going in that direction... if you are going to change the stages, you might as well run a separate match after the pistol match. Also, the mere hint of making ANY changes to the existing pistol match format is probably all the excuse the "do nothing" people would need to kill the whole idea.

[RJH]

I think Stealthy has got the right idea, and I am for this. it sounds fun, and much better than welfare optics IMO:-) If it did push a few shots out a little further in a match, would that really be a problem? I do not think so, I could use the practice. I cant remember for sure but isn't 50 yards either the max allowed or recommended for target distance? Also bay size would be a main factor on target distance as well. At a local range here most of the bays can only go to 25 yds anyway. I say that uspsa should defiantly do this and I am for run what you brung, and minor for all. (I hate shooting minor in pistols, but think it would be perfect for this)

[pskys2]

No need to change stuff for the new division. PCC is not particularly relevent in 3-Gun because you already have a pistol in that format. Also, the PCC is not ideal for the more distant targets in 3-gun/Multigun.

The "P" in USPSA is not for Pistol...

I agree but just to play devil's advocate....

It stands for "Practical." With the origins of the sport in mind, is it practical for you to carry around a carbine all day while you go about your day to day business?

What happens if you apply that same logic to Open?

Open has led to "Carry Optics" which manufacturers are now making and is a step up for self defense.

Practical Shooting is definitely an umbrella organization, but it started as a handgun test bed to determine the best possible platform for personal self defense.

Of course it has morphed out of that strict definition, and led to the formation of other practical competitions IDPA and Single Stack Society were originally a reaction to the evolution of IPSC/USPSA.

My concern is by bundling into handgun matches you will either stretch the limits to accommodate carbine rifles and/or dumb down the test that could be made of carbines. Stretching the limits isn't a problem for upper skill level competitors, but the rank and file C and D competitors may lose interest.

Also the logistics need to be considered. Ever go to a Steel Challenge match, it just slows down the whole process when you start juggling in rimfire riles/pistols. So you have to consider how carbines are stored/handled so competitors can tape, etc...

In a Multi Gun scenario you could replace shotgun/pistol with carbine and it wouldn't make a big difference. Then if it takes off it could well morph into a separate match.

[2MoreChains]

I don't disagree with your points at all, although I don't think it'll be as bad as you suggest. Some of the divisions have a big influence on stage design. 24 rnds was the longest stage at SS Nats last year. Several stages at this year's Open/L10 match got modified on changover day from the way they were setup for the Limited match, and many of the stages were made harder because of Open (to the chagrin of the L10 folks). So its already happening.

But we also have rules to follow. 3" or 4" KDs that are common in 3 gun are not allowed in USPSA because its below the minimum size for steel targets. Many clubs also have limitations on bay size which will be another limiting factor. As a stage designer/MD for my local club I can also foresee pushback from my shooters if I start designing stages that challenge the PCC guys at the expense of crushing a C or D iron sight pistol shooter, just like I would if I designed stages to cater to the M-class Open guy.

I agree that people who shoot multiple divisions at a SC match can and do slow things down with all the juggling of pistols and rifles and the associated paraphenalia, but I've also seen prepared shooters come to the line with everything laid out and ready to go. Walk up, unbag at the MR command, at the end ULASC then bag. Its manageable, especailly if we limit folks to shooting just one division at the match.

I do like your idea of replacing SG with a PCC at Multigun matches. I've seen stages where you had your choice of SG or pistol, and PCC would be a hoot.

Or maybe I'm just looking for a venue to shoot a PCC, I don't know... But at $1,000 for the gun and maybe $200-400 for the red dot, hell yeah, lets race!

[RangerTrace]

I just think it would be fun, period. And a little competition for the 3gun matches that have taken a huge chunk of our shooters wouldn't hurt either.

[StealthyBlagga]

USPSA already has a mature rule book covering safety and gun handling protocols for long guns. Bring it to the line with an open bolt indicator, load as usual, start at low ready (or other position per WSB), after ULSC simply insert the OBI again, and the RO calls the range clear. No need to dick round with bags. Should flow just as fast as a pistol shooter... probably faster as the shooting time will likely be faster (easier to hit with, less reloads), and a much reduced probability of claimed "immaculate doubles" during scoring

Oh, and I would make this a single division under handgun rules. Each shooter declares ONE division at the start of the match, just like with any other handgun division. There should be no juggling of guns like in SC. If the MD wants to allow re-entries after completing the match with the first gun (just like with any second handgun), then that is his business, but I don't see this as an argument against PCC specifically.

To keep things really simple, I would advocate:

1) Add "Pistol Caliber Carbine" as a provisional division in the handgun competition rules.

2) The gun must be a recognized pistol caliber that would be otherwise legal for USPSA handgun divisions.

3) Score minor only, which would enhance the accuracy challenge a little.

4) The PCC must be fitted with a shoulder stock, and comply with established USPSA rules (e.g. no full auto fire etc.). Otherwise, "run what ya brung".

And as regards cost, the experience at my home range (where we run several outlaw PCC-eligible matches each month) is that a lot of folks can get into the division for well under $500, either with one of the many great PCCs out there (KelTec Sub2000 is great for the $$$), or with a caliber conversion for their existing AR15 (9mm upper + mag block). This puts PCC much more in the price range of Production than Limited/Open.

Edited December 14, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[RangerTrace]

I sent Foley a PM and it sounds like there is a real chance it could happen

[Southpaw]

I just think it would be fun, period. And a little competition for the 3gun matches that have taken a huge chunk of our shooters wouldn't hurt either.

Agreed, it would be a lot of fun and would get me to finally buy or build a PCC.

A 2 gun pistol/PCC match would also be a lot of fun. Would obviously need to be a separate match and not just a new division, but might also help win back some 3gun shooters. A few times a year our 3gun match has a shotgun optional match that seems to be very popular. Appears I'm not the only one who enjoys shooting pistols and carbines, but is not into shotguns.

[OPENB]

I have a 9mm Olympic Arms SBR upper that I would love to shoot in PCC. I would do it just to do something different from standard USPSA pistol matches. Same with my M1 Carbine. I like Southpaw's idea to make PCC another division. Don't alter stages to cater to it, that will be the death of it.