Southpaw Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Start it with one division. If PCC becomes popular enough and there's a need for multiple divisions it will evolve into that; just like how USPSA started as one division and then grew from there. Remember it's MUCH easier to add new divisions than remove/significantly modify existing divisions. Also a heads up for those that haven't seen: Palmetto State Armory just came out with their own Glock mag lower. I think this would be one of the cheapest options for a Glock mag AR. Someone please buy one and post a review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Could a Sig MPX with brace thing be used or does the fact that it is technically a pistol exclude it from how PCC may or may not evolve? I realize this is theoretical at this point. Thanks I would want to not allow this because a shooter is going to shoulder the brace at some point and now you have a felony at a USPSA sponsored match. No thanks. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 What Pat said... Gotta keep it clean looking at least. Pics of shouldered "pistols" would be very bad for USPSA and shooting sports as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 So now USPSA should be in the NFA rules compliance business? Shooters are solely responsible for the legality of their equipment. Not to mention the idea that by touching an othwise legal device to your shoulder you have "redesigned" it is ludicrous (no offense to the musician). If the US Government can't figure out what should be allowed or not how is a volunteer RO going to do so? Does it fire a recognized pistol cartridge? Does it have a barrel shorter than 24"? Is it possible to be fired safely from the shoulder? If it meets those 3 criteria it is a pistol caliber carbine, everything else is between the shooter, the NFA, and God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhawk6 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Just seems like it would be a hoot !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 So now USPSA should be in the NFA rules compliance business? Shooters are solely responsible for the legality of their equipment. Not to mention the idea that by touching an othwise legal device to your shoulder you have "redesigned" it is ludicrous (no offense to the musician). If the US Government can't figure out what should be allowed or not how is a volunteer RO going to do so? Does it fire a recognized pistol cartridge? Does it have a barrel shorter than 24"? Is it possible to be fired safely from the shoulder? If it meets those 3 criteria it is a pistol caliber carbine, everything else is between the shooter, the NFA, and God. And at your range where you assume all risk, that's fine. Most ranges though aren't going to want to have anything to do with you, if you intend on breaking the law...... If you're bringing an AR pistol with a sig brace, it can't compete in any of the pistol divisions because it has a shoulder stock and a fore grip.... If you intend to enter it in PCC as a carbine -- well it's a pistol, so we'd be back to handgun rules applying and it not being appropriate...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Also a heads up for those that haven't seen: Palmetto State Armory just came out with their own Glock mag lower. I think this would be one of the cheapest options for a Glock mag AR. Someone please buy one and post a review Figures. I just got my just right carbine because it uses Glock mags. We have a PSA in town so the next time I'm there I'll check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) So now USPSA should be in the NFA rules compliance business? Shooters are solely responsible for the legality of their equipment. Not to mention the idea that by touching an othwise legal device to your shoulder you have "redesigned" it is ludicrous (no offense to the musician). If the US Government can't figure out what should be allowed or not how is a volunteer RO going to do so? Does it fire a recognized pistol cartridge? Does it have a barrel shorter than 24"? Is it possible to be fired safely from the shoulder? If it meets those 3 criteria it is a pistol caliber carbine, everything else is between the shooter, the NFA, and God. Sure they are until there is a big article in the paper or on the net about USPSA sanctioning illegal activities. That is how it will be spun. No thank you! I agree that BATEF's rulling is ludicrous but for now its the law of the land and we can not and should not be sanctioning committing felonies at our matches. Edited December 27, 2015 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Seems this issue is already addressed in the rule book, section 12.3 And just to play devil's advocate: how's an MD supposed to know whether a gun with a Sig brace is a pistol or SBR? Maybe someone had an AR pistol with a brace, then SBRed it, but hasn't gotten around to changing the stock, or doesn't mind using the brace as a stock so doesn't want to pay for a new stock. Just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Seems this issue is already addressed in the rule book, section 12.3 And just to play devil's advocate: how's an MD supposed to know whether a gun with a Sig brace is a pistol or SBR? Maybe someone had an AR pistol with a brace, then SBRed it, but hasn't gotten around to changing the stock, or doesn't mind using the brace as a stock so doesn't want to pay for a new stock. Just a thought... Don't know what the MD can do the the RM can see what division the shooter declared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Seems this issue is already addressed in the rule book, section 12.3 And just to play devil's advocate: how's an MD supposed to know whether a gun with a Sig brace is a pistol or SBR? Maybe someone had an AR pistol with a brace, then SBRed it, but hasn't gotten around to changing the stock, or doesn't mind using the brace as a stock so doesn't want to pay for a new stock. Just a thought... Don't know what the MD can do the the RM can see what division the shooter declared. Hey Chuck, haha yes, good catch. I guess I'm just thinking of this at local matches where MD and RM are generally one in the same. Although an AR or MPX pistol wouldn't be legal for any other division anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brisix Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) PCC is the best new thing to come up since the 90s. I agree this should be a run what you brung with the only rules being acceptable pistol calibers, minor scoring and magazines. I don't care about the fore grip rule. Its not an advantage and according to the "experts" it is actual makes it harder to shoot more accurate and and faster. Its only purpose is for operators to have a place to put there support hand because of all the widgets on the hand guard. Ideally your want you support arm in parallel to the bore axis. The only real questions is deciding on magazine capacity or length. Deciding on length would push people to 9mm. I think capacity is the way to go with 20 to force at least one reload. I am in Production so I am used to reloads My carbine of choice will be the CZ Scorpion Carbine. It does have a pretty bad stock trigger like most CZ pistols but CGW is already working on parts to fix that. This could be another "low cost division" that CZ can dominate Edited January 2, 2016 by brisix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 CZ has never won a major!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brisix Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 That's only because a CZ didn't fit in Ben's hands like the Stock II. Plus I was referring to number used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 CZ has never won a major!!! Google "Adam Tyc" Dunno what happened to him. Probably got married Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarker13 Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'd rather not see carbines at USPSA matches. If they want to do something where they have a side match afterwards or the following day, I'm all for it. I have nothing against the carbines. I'm in the process of going the SBR route on a Sig MPX right now. But we already have enough divisions as it is. If you want to shoot rifles, find a 3-gun, multi-gun or rifle match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'd rather not see carbines at USPSA matches. If they want to do something where they have a side match afterwards or the following day, I'm all for it. I have nothing against the carbines. I'm in the process of going the SBR route on a Sig MPX right now. But we already have enough divisions as it is. If you want to shoot rifles, find a 3-gun, multi-gun or rifle match. There is the first nay sayer I've seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairmckenzie1 Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Multigun matches are much fewer and far between. Most clubs around here put on 2-4 multigun matches a year as opposed to 1 or 2 pistol matches a month. Multigun matches are also much more labor intensive to set up. Squeezing in a carbine division seems like it would be pretty minimal impact to all involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastly Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'm all for PCC but the biggest challenge I see id that [some] competitors will want to shoot Pistol AND Pistol Carbine in the same match. This makes balancing the number of people vs. shooting slots across squads trickier. Smaller squads with more guns increases stage reset challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'm all for PCC but the biggest challenge I see id that [some] competitors will want to shoot Pistol AND Pistol Carbine in the same match. This makes balancing the number of people vs. shooting slots across squads trickier. Smaller squads with more guns increases stage reset challenges. That's easy. One or the other for busy batches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwinG Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'm all for PCC but the biggest challenge I see id that [some] competitors will want to shoot Pistol AND Pistol Carbine in the same match. This makes balancing the number of people vs. shooting slots across squads trickier. Smaller squads with more guns increases stage reset challenges. Yup, this is my only concern from match logistics perspective as I want to shoot both pistol and PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaLarry Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) Every 5th Saturday we have an all steel match. Probably 1/4 of the competitors shoot 2 guns. They pay twice and 2 "slots" are assigned that squad. It all evens out. More money for the club and more shooting for those who want to. Win-win all around. Most 2nd guns are carbines or shotguns. (We make the shotguns shoot last in the squad so we can repaint for the next squad). Sent from my reloading bench using Tapatalk Edited January 8, 2016 by ParaOrdnanceLarry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebwake Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 A holster could be practical, (dont you see the picture? That ciuld work!) all it has to do is fully cover the trigger guard and retain the handgun. "Fore grips" to me is in reference to a vertical grip, which is illegal without a tax stamp anyway. So why not just declare open? Where is a vertical grip illegal and require a "tax stamp" it certainly is not a federal ban. Perhaps some crazy state law where you live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” T https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download Edited January 8, 2016 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” T https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download They just lost a case on that very subject. The ATF holds a number of views on gun laws, and regulations that the courts so far haven't supported 100%. Granted that doesn't stop the ATF from arresting people and trying them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now