Asking SO his threshold for cover call

[quaker]

Hi all! I'm new to shooting IDPA, I noticed in the 2 level 3 sanctioned match that I went to, I got dinged for cover wherein I know I did not (one I got on video and also recorded other shooters after me who did much worse but wasn't dinged). I understand maybe his angle of sight to me and the other shooter might be different to he called mine. My question is it ok for a shooter to ask RO his threshold for a cover call? Would it be right to ask base on SO etiquette norm?

btw, the first time it happened to me, the SO called for cover command but it was almost the same time as I've broke my first shot in the array (then I move back for cover and really unable to see the next target anymore and missed it) I don't wanna be that guy and just wanted to enjoy the rest of the day so I just let it go and charge it to experience.

The second one, did not call cover at all, he just told me after the run and ask me if I understand why I got a procedural and point me to the position area where I got the call.

even though I started as shooting IPSC, I love IDPA ...its just that moving fault line...which is I'm determined to overcome

cheers!

[freeidaho]

Not sure what you mean. Draw a mental straight line from the center of the target to the edge of the prop and continue it. That is the cover line.

If any part of your foot, knee, or hip is outside that line and you fire a shot, your reward is 3 seconds. Some SOs will give you a toe, or a foot over the line, but don't get used to it, cause others will call it correctly.

[JD45]

I've shot this game for 15 years. Here are is what I've seen:

1. There are actually a few good, experienced SOs that go straight by the rulebook.

2. Usually it depends on what the SO thinks of you. If you aren't a threat to beat him, that helps too.

3.if you are usually in his buddy squad you're safe from most PE's.

4. At state shoots, where they don't know you, you better not break cover.

5. If the SO likes you, and hates the guy you are always trying to beat, you will almost never get a cover call.

[quaker]

Thanks for the response FreeIdaho and JD45 ! what I meant was, just after the stage briefing, is it ok if I stand in a position behind the cover and ask the SO if its an acceptable cover (before he calls it for PE)?In local matches since everybody knew each other I can ask away, but I'm thinking if I could do the same in state matches and if its generally acceptable.

Thanks!

Edited October 28, 2015 by quaker

[racknrider]

During the walk through I feel it's ok to ask any question you want pertaining to the stage. I would rather someone ask ahead of time than get huffy after they get the finger. Cover is pretty straightforward, as long as your leading foot is behind cover you're pretty safe. And don't crowd the cover as closely and you'll have more leeway.

[BillR1]

I've had people try that tactic with me after the stage briefing. "Is this still in cover...what about this...how about this?" I simply say that I'm not there to tell them exactly how to shoot the stage and that I will be calling cover according to the IDPA rule book.

[ES13Raven]

There are some SOs that still call cover by the old rule book - calling it from the outside edge of the target. A few shooters and I noticed this at a recent sanctioned match. We lined up with the center of the -0 and the edge of the wall, and watched as the SO gave cover calls to shooters who were clearly not breaking cover. We confronted him on this.

Make sure they know cover is supposed to be called from the center of the -0 to infinity.

[BillR1]

There are some SOs that still call cover by the old rule book - calling it from the outside edge of the target. A few shooters and I noticed this at a recent sanctioned match. We lined up with the center of the -0 and the edge of the wall, and watched as the SO gave cover calls to shooters who were clearly not breaking cover. We confronted him on this.

Make sure they know cover is supposed to be called from the center of the -0 to infinity.

Agreed!

[FTDMFR]

I shot Worlds this year, and the SOs would answer questions about cover during the walkthrough.

[ES13Raven]

I shot Worlds this year, and the SOs would answer questions about cover during the walkthrough.

Some SOs see this as "coaching" the shooter. I don't see an issue with it. The shooter is trying NOT to get a penalty, and play by the rules - which is a good thing.

[Thomas H]

I've had people try that tactic with me after the stage briefing. "Is this still in cover...what about this...how about this?" I simply say that I'm not there to tell them exactly how to shoot the stage and that I will be calling cover according to the IDPA rule book.

Try that tactic?

Trying to make sure they are following the rules is a problem? They aren't asking how to run the stage--they are trying to make sure that in a particular position, they are following the rules. You don't like this for some reason?

I note: Most of the time, whether or not someone is behind cover isn't solely based on foot position---as such, to any questions like that I'd merely say "your feet are currently behind cover (or not, depending on where they are standing) but I can only say that right NOW everything above it is behind cover (or not). This may change if you are leaning or moving differently during your stage run." ...so I get why people asking "is this behind cover" is something that isn't an absolute. However, treating it like people are trying a "tactic"....

....I'm not sure how this is a problem. After all, competitors are allowed to observe the targets from the cover position during the walk-through, and to ask questions of the stage SOs, yes?

[BillR1]

Answering "stage questions" (according to my SOI) should be limited to specific questions about a stage that may not be clearly spelled out in the written COF. The SO shouldn't have to instruct the shooter on how to stay in cover during a match. That part IS clearly defined in the rule book IMO. Does the SO always get it right? Nope. But if I tell the shooter that I'm going to call cover according to the rule book, then the responsibility is on them to read and know the rules.

I try very hard to keep most conversation between myself and a shooter to a minimum, particularly when I'm working a sanctioned match. If it's a local event, I'm a lot more helpful if I can.

[v1911]

The few sanctioned matched I've shot, the SO's will inform you of what they're looking for as far as cover for shots that may get you in trouble. That may just be in my neck of the woods, YMMV.

[davsco]

Thanks for the response FreeIdaho and JD45 ! what I meant was, just after the stage briefing, is it ok if I stand in a position behind the cover and ask the SO if its an acceptable cover (before he calls it for PE)?In local matches since everybody knew each other I can ask away, but I'm thinking if I could do the same in state matches and if its generally acceptable.

Thanks!

one thing i really dislike about idpa is the subjectivity of cover calls. regarding your question though, it's not just where you stand but what your doing with your body, specifically the top half. only half of your top half (torso) can be sticking out beyond cover.

[rowdyb]

Behind the scenes I'd love to see a SO walk through his stage with a 20 yard piece of twine, walk up to each target and staple one end of the string to the center of the -0, then walk the string back touching the edge of cover and past it 5 yards, look down at the ground and back up again and then they'd know for a fact where cover is, rather than just plain old eye balling it.Build your mental, visual, invisible fault line off of fact, data.

This would I think alleviate a lot of the so-so calls and still wouldn't require anyone to put a fault line down. But 1o-15 minutes of the SO's time would yield an invaluable amount of knowledge and self confidence. As arguing a cover call always turns into a he said-she said kinda thing I'd be happier knowing someone actually did more than just eyeball it in the moment and make a subjective judgement call.

As an aside, I've tried to argue less and less at matches and just smile and move on. A few times I've had things that were egregious and had to dig out the rule book to make my case but that's rare and while I may do it, I don't like doing it. We all know folks who whine and fight over every contrary call and just for professionalism I really try not to be that person in real life.

Edited October 29, 2015 by rowdyb

[quaker]

Thanks for all the guidance! Each response helped me realized, just like any sports, at the end of the day its still up to the person how he would react to things, and how he would conduct himself during the match will determine what the outcome would be.

Hope to shoot with you guys in the future

Cheers!

[Marshal82]

I will ask when the cover it's clearly defined. When there is a wall or a clearly defined cover line it's by the book and no need to ask. At the Carolina Cup this year we shot from a panel van and it wasn't a place cover as much as it was a position.

2 things that bug me about SO's calling cover incorrectly. One when they are not in a position to see or to call cover, like standing beside you and clearly cannot tell whether you broke cover or not. Second with with larger gentlemen that shoot, they are bigger so they have more to expose still following the rules but they still seem to get these calls.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Marshal82

[ES13Raven]

2 things that bug me about SO's calling cover incorrectly. One when they are not in a position to see or to call cover, like standing beside you and clearly cannot tell whether you broke cover or not.

Also, the SO running the timer should not be calling cover, they should be watching the gun. ASOs should be watching for cover and other violations.

[GOF]

+1 to ES13. The clearly defined responsibility of the SO on the timer is to watch the gun & shooter safety. That SO will NOT be in position to see any cover call other than the truly obvious/egregious, if they are doing their job as the Rule Book proscribes. The ASO is the one to make the tighter cover calls.

Not all timer SOs have gotten that message. I have had cover PEs issued by an 'overly-officious' SO that, upon protest and review, were overturned by the ASO.

FWIW I spent 8 years as a certified SO.

[harleytech]

The Cover Brothers Chris?

[GOF]

Mike.... You SOed my squad at 2011 IDPA Worlds (we thought you did such a great job that we presented your with the 'military salute'... a bottle of booze... at the awards ceremony). You have also shot against me in ICORE at Volusia and Orlando.

You know I am not a "whiner". You also know I have been around the "games" for awhile.

My comments are based upon that experience. After the infamous computer re-crert after Joyce took over, IDPA lost a large number of experienced SOs.

It shows today.

[BillR1]

+1 to ES13. The clearly defined responsibility of the SO on the timer is to watch the gun & shooter safety. That SO will NOT be in position to see any cover call other than the truly obvious/egregious, if they are doing their job as the Rule Book proscribes. The ASO is the one to make the tighter cover calls.

Not all timer SOs have gotten that message. I have had cover PEs issued by an 'overly-officious' SO that, upon protest and review, were overturned by the ASO.

FWIW I spent 8 years as a certified SO.

I'd be quite interested in seeing the earlier versions of the rule book as it pertains to these duties. The rule book that I use doesn't mention "ASOs".

"2.6.1 The Primary Safety Officer (PSO ) is responsible for preparing and running the shooter through the CoF in accordance with IDPA rules while monitoring the shoot's progress through the CoF and noting any infractions of IDPA rules."

and...

"2.6.4.2 Working in conjunction with the Scorekeeper SO to observe and levy any penalties incurred by the shooter during the CoF."

The rule book also mentions the duties of the Scorekeeper SO (SSO)...

"2.7.1.2.1 Observe the shooter’s execution of the CoF for safety, procedural, and cover violations"

The current rule book seems clear that both the PSO and the SSO are responsible for making rules/cover calls. I'll agree that on many stages the SO on the timer is frequently not in the best position to make cover calls, but that's not always the case. At the 'Bama state match last year, one stage had the shooter moving down a narrow hallway. The PSO had to make the cover calls since there simply wasn't room for another SO in the same hall.

[45 Raven]

I shoot IDPA matches locally as often as I can, and I have a real, non-troll question regarding cover:

If there were shooting boxes in IDPA and the subjectivity of cover calls was removed from the sport, would it be a really big deal? How would the sport be compromised?

IDPA tries to make the sport different from some other shooting sports by making the courses of fire as what they believe to be as realistic as possible. But we all know IDPA is a sport and can never replace true tactical training as a methodology for saying alive on the street beyond developing gun handling and marksmanship skills.

I understand that there are no shooting boxes on the street, but there are many aspects of IDPA competition that do not realistically link to on-the-street encounters, because it is a sport, not tactical training.

So if the "cover call" aspect of IDPA was simply removed and replaced with shooting boxes, wouldn't it likely result in a more enjoyable sport and make it easier to have fun (for both the competitors and RO/s)?

Just asking.

[Gregg K]

As to how cover will be called on a stage, it is the SO's job to tell you so don't hesitate to ask if it has not been communicated in a way that you know what is expected. Yes, it is also your job to have read and understand the rulebook but it's the SO's job to point out the points of cover and to assist you through the COF. Here are 2 clips from the rulebook that would apply.

3.3 Prior to shooting a stage, a group walkthrough will be given by the SO. During the group walkthrough the SO will verbally indicate to all shooters the vision barriers and points of cover for each target and the criteria that will be used in assessing the shooter's use of cover during the stage

3.7 It is my duty to assist, to the best of my ability, all shooters and not to hinder them through harassment or authoritarian behavior.

[jhgtyre]

As to how cover will be called on a stage, it is the SO's job to tell you so don't hesitate to ask if it has not been communicated in a way that you know what is expected. Yes, it is also your job to have read and understand the rulebook but it's the SO's job to point out the points of cover and to assist you through the COF. Here are 2 clips from the rulebook that would apply.

3.3 Prior to shooting a stage, a group walkthrough will be given by the SO. During the group walkthrough the SO will verbally indicate to all shooters the vision barriers and points of cover for each target and the criteria that will be used in assessing the shooter's use of cover during the stage

3.7 It is my duty to assist, to the best of my ability, all shooters and not to hinder them through harassment or authoritarian behavior.

I might get 3.7 printed on a shirt.