Asking SO his threshold for cover call

[ES13Raven]

I'd be quite interested in seeing the earlier versions of the rule book as it pertains to these duties. The rule book that I use doesn't mention "ASOs".

"2.6.1 The Primary Safety Officer (PSO ) is responsible for preparing and running the shooter through the CoF in accordance with IDPA rules while monitoring the shoot's progress through the CoF and noting any infractions of IDPA rules."

and...

"2.6.4.2 Working in conjunction with the Scorekeeper SO to observe and levy any penalties incurred by the shooter during the CoF."

The rule book also mentions the duties of the Scorekeeper SO (SSO)...

"2.7.1.2.1 Observe the shooter’s execution of the CoF for safety, procedural, and cover violations"

The current rule book seems clear that both the PSO and the SSO are responsible for making rules/cover calls. I'll agree that on many stages the SO on the timer is frequently not in the best position to make cover calls, but that's not always the case. At the 'Bama state match last year, one stage had the shooter moving down a narrow hallway. The PSO had to make the cover calls since there simply wasn't room for another SO in the same hall.

C'mon Bill. you know what we meant by ASO. So sorry I didn't get the acronym right.

You also forgot these about the Primary SO:

2.6.1 The Primary Safety Officer (PSO ) is responsible for preparing and running the shooter through the CoF in accordance with IDPA rules while monitoring the shoot's progress through the CoF and noting any infractions of IDPA rules. Primary SOs specific responsibilities include:

2.6.2 Maintaining a clear focus on the particular shooter the SO is assigned to observe, as follows:

2.6.2.1 Not permitting his or her attention to be misdirected or lax.

2.6.2.2 Observing the shooter during the CoF from a vantage point where the SO can clearly view each of the shooter's actions and react appropriately by the following means:

2.6.2.2.1 Observe the firing hand and firearm.

And the Rule Book specifically says the Scorekeeper to watch for cover violations, as you mentioned in 2.7.1.2.1

Can the PSO call cover? Yes

Are there situations where the PSO has a better view? Yes

In general, should the PSO call cover? No

In general, should the Scorekeeper call cover? Yes

[ES13Raven]

As to how cover will be called on a stage, it is the SO's job to tell you so don't hesitate to ask if it has not been communicated in a way that you know what is expected. Yes, it is also your job to have read and understand the rulebook but it's the SO's job to point out the points of cover and to assist you through the COF. Here are 2 clips from the rulebook that would apply.

3.3 Prior to shooting a stage, a group walkthrough will be given by the SO. During the group walkthrough the SO will verbally indicate to all shooters the vision barriers and points of cover for each target and the criteria that will be used in assessing the shooter's use of cover during the stage

3.7 It is my duty to assist, to the best of my ability, all shooters and not to hinder them through harassment or authoritarian behavior.

Thank you for posting this. Excellent.

[BillR1]

I'd be quite interested in seeing the earlier versions of the rule book as it pertains to these duties. The rule book that I use doesn't mention "ASOs".

"2.6.1 The Primary Safety Officer (PSO ) is responsible for preparing and running the shooter through the CoF in accordance with IDPA rules while monitoring the shoot's progress through the CoF and noting any infractions of IDPA rules."

and...

"2.6.4.2 Working in conjunction with the Scorekeeper SO to observe and levy any penalties incurred by the shooter during the CoF."

The rule book also mentions the duties of the Scorekeeper SO (SSO)...

"2.7.1.2.1 Observe the shooter’s execution of the CoF for safety, procedural, and cover violations"

The current rule book seems clear that both the PSO and the SSO are responsible for making rules/cover calls. I'll agree that on many stages the SO on the timer is frequently not in the best position to make cover calls, but that's not always the case. At the 'Bama state match last year, one stage had the shooter moving down a narrow hallway. The PSO had to make the cover calls since there simply wasn't room for another SO in the same hall.

Can the PSO call cover? Yes

Are there situations where the PSO has a better view? Yes

In general, should the PSO call cover? No

In general, should the Scorekeeper call cover? Yes

I somewhat agree Eric.

If the PSO sees an obvious cover violation, he should call it.

Edited October 30, 2015 by BillR1

[BillR1]

If the PSO sees and doesn't call a blatant cover violation, then he's depending solely on the SSO to hopefully see and make that call. If the SSO does not make the call, then the shooter just got an advantage on that stage that other shooters may or may not have received. I'm pretty sure that's the reason that the rule book states that both the PSO and the SSO are tasked with watching for rules violations.

[ES13Raven]

If the PSO sees an obvious cover violation, he should call it.

Indeed.

[GOF]

Agreed again. But... if the PSO is watching the shooter's gun and arm then they are NOT in position to see "tight' cover calls. If they are, they're not doing their most important job.

If the PSO sees an obvious/egregious cover violation, of course call it!. But the SSO is the one to make the "tight" calls because they should be the only SO in a position to see them ... at least, if both SOs are doing their job according to the Rule Book.

[BillR1]

Agreed again. But... if the PSO is watching the shooter's gun and arm then they are NOT in position to see "tight' cover calls. If they are, they're not doing their most important job.

If the PSO sees an obvious/egregious cover violation, of course call it!. But the SSO is the one to make the "tight" calls because they should be the only SO in a position to see them ... at least, if both SOs are doing their job according to the Rule Book.

Yep, agreed!

[45 Raven]

When the rule book of a sport is discussed as often or more frequently than the fun the sport provides, it is, in my opinion, a symptom of a problem.

Eliminate cover call controversy by implementing the use of shooting boxes.

I'll move on, now.

[Gregg K]

As to how cover will be called on a stage, it is the SO's job to tell you so don't hesitate to ask if it has not been communicated in a way that you know what is expected. Yes, it is also your job to have read and understand the rulebook but it's the SO's job to point out the points of cover and to assist you through the COF. Here are 2 clips from the rulebook that would apply.

3.3 Prior to shooting a stage, a group walkthrough will be given by the SO. During the group walkthrough the SO will verbally indicate to all shooters the vision barriers and points of cover for each target and the criteria that will be used in assessing the shooter's use of cover during the stage

3.7 It is my duty to assist, to the best of my ability, all shooters and not to hinder them through harassment or authoritarian behavior.

I might get 3.7 printed on a shirt.

I'll take a size medium please.

Every once in a while you run into an SO that refuses to answer any questions other than to say " I will be doing everything as per the current IDPA rulebook".

I really have to fight the urge to just smack em.

I know it gets hard to keep answering the same stupid asked questions over and over but that's just part of the deal. When an SO can no longer be helpful and be a good ambassador for the sport it's time to take a break. We can all reach a burn out point that requires taking a break and having some fun.

[ES13Raven]

So if the "cover call" aspect of IDPA was simply removed and replaced with shooting boxes, wouldn't it likely result in a more enjoyable sport and make it easier to have fun (for both the competitors and RO/s)?

How would you do it?

Sometimes there are several positions of cover from P1, as cover changes after each target is engaged.

[45 Raven]

Agree that cover changes as each target is engaged.

But for the sport's sake, I would simply have shooting boxes.

I understand that is a compromise to IDPA's preference to create "realistic" courses of fire, but there are numerous other aspects of shooting IDPA stages that aren't "real life". However, very few of them seem to be open to as much subjectivity (and disagreement) as cover calls.

I'll continue to shoot IDPA as often as I can, because I enjoy it and the company of my fellow shooters, but it just seems there would be a burden lifted from the administration of courses of fire if cover calls were removed.

[agwoodard]

I think you should try being an SO. It looks easy, but I think you might walk away with a different opinion. Nobody's perfect. I think most guys try hard to get it right.

On the other hand, I know a couple of SO's who take 2 and 3 below to new levels. Once you've been around a while, at least at local matches, you'll know whose squad to avoid. Makes the day more enjoyable if you stay away from them.

I've shot this game for 15 years. Here are is what I've seen:


2. Usually it depends on what the SO thinks of you. If you aren't a threat to beat him, that helps too.
3.if you are usually in his buddy squad you're safe from most PE's.

[Jim Watson]

There is one helpful MD/SO hereabouts who in the walkthrough of a stage with tight cover will pose and say: "This is cover, this is cover, too, this is NOT cover."

Not every official lives in Gotcha Land nor ignores CoF requirements.

[BillR1]

I think a few people here are getting sidetracked from the OP's question regarding cover THRESHOLDS. There is a huge difference between pointing out positions of cover, (which I always do!) and going into an advanced lesson on how to use cover at a particular spot. I've had shooters in the past that will stand at a point of cover and ask "Am I in cover right here?" Then they will move their feet an inch or so and repeat the question, sometimes several times. For me to take that much time with a particular shooter is time consuming at best, and it's also not fair to the other shooters who DID bother to read the rule book.

During the walk through, I point out all shooting positions and points of cover and non-cover. The shooter is expected to know how to use this information in accordance with IDPA rules. But I won't get drawn into a long discussion about tiny foot position changes as it pertains to staying in cover.

[JackOAT]

I'm new to the game, but here is my thought on the cover rule and application of it. These are based on my interpretations of the stated goals of IDPA in general.

The cover line is the LIMIT of your exposure to the target. It is not meant to be the EXACT position for engaging a target. The fact that it is somewhat subjective to the perception of each individual SO is OK. In a real life scenario, that cover line could also be fluid and not well defined. The point is to slow down and find the point that YOU can engage the target without exposing yourself to the target. Because the lines are open to the interpretation of the SO, those that try to run right to the very LIMIT of the line will find themselves crossing it on occasion. Those that slow down and approach the line with care, as in real life, will fare better in the long run. It all equals out. Of course, I rodeo'd a little in my youth, so a judge's interpretation and perception, as well as luck of the draw, are an acceptable concept to me.

The point I'm making is; don't worry so much about each SOs interpretation. The concept behind the rule is more important, IMHO, YMMV, etc.

[racerba]

Those that slow down and approach the line with care, as in real life, will fare better in the long run.

Not in the sport of IDPA...where you are constantly on the clock. To slow down is to give up time to the opponent...This is a game, and in the game, those who finish with the fastest time wins...those with the slower times because of cover penalties loses... everything else remains the same, a subjective cover call may just make the difference in winning or not winning.

[JackOAT]

Those that slow down and approach the line with care, as in real life, will fare better in the long run.

Not in the sport of IDPA...where you are constantly on the clock. To slow down is to give up time to the opponent...This is a game, and in the game, those who finish with the fastest time wins...those with the slower times because of cover penalties loses... everything else remains the same, a subjective cover call may just make the difference in winning or not winning.

And to me, the D in IDPA demands that. They can't make the targets shoot back (or most wounldn't participate if they did). The cover call is the equivalent of giving your opponent too much of an advantage. There should be a consequence to that. What advantage the "line rider" gains in time sometimes, will cost him other times. It all equals out over time. Maybe not during a single match, but over a season.

Just the way I look at it. But I agree that the individual SO should call cover consistently with ALL shooters to the best of their ability. Anything less or biased is not acceptable.

[racerba]

But I agree that the individual SO should call cover consistently with ALL shooters to the best of their ability. Anything less or biased is not acceptable.

All shooters should be called cover consistently by all SO...right now, what one SO consider cover may be a procedural by another...

[JackOAT]

But I agree that the individual SO should call cover consistently with ALL shooters to the best of their ability. Anything less or biased is not acceptable.

...right now, what one SO consider cover may be a procedural by another...

And I'm saying, that's OK, part of the sport, necessary and actually serves an important function.

Again, JMO.

[racerba]

But I agree that the individual SO should call cover consistently with ALL shooters to the best of their ability. Anything less or biased is not acceptable.

...right now, what one SO consider cover may be a procedural by another...

And I'm saying, that's OK, part of the sport, necessary and actually serves an important function.

Again, JMO.

So I shoot all season using cover one way...which has not been called all season...I go to a major match and I get called cover for the same thing I have been doing all season? Subjectivity should not be part of the sport...subjectivity serves nothing...

[JackOAT]

But I agree that the individual SO should call cover consistently with ALL shooters to the best of their ability. Anything less or biased is not acceptable.

...right now, what one SO consider cover may be a procedural by another...

And I'm saying, that's OK, part of the sport, necessary and actually serves an important function.

Again, JMO.

So I shoot all season using cover one way...which has not been called all season...I go to a major match and I get called cover for the same thing I have been doing all season? Subjectivity should not be part of the sport...subjectivity serves nothing...

Hey, I'm just sharing my opinion on the OP's question.

Yeah, that's a bummer, but I'm sure you'll get 'em next time.

[Rangerdug]

I've shot this game for 15 years. Here are is what I've seen:

1. There are actually a few good, experienced SOs that go straight by the rulebook.

2. Usually it depends on what the SO thinks of you. If you aren't a threat to beat him, that helps too.

3.if you are usually in his buddy squad you're safe from most PE's.

4. At state shoots, where they don't know you, you better not break cover.

5. If the SO likes you, and hates the guy you are always trying to beat, you will almost never get a cover call.

True... But sad