ickus Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) We do not rise to the level of our expectations , We fall to the level of our training I do know that every time someone buys a hipoint God kills a kitten....... It's true I saw it on the internet Edited September 23, 2015 by ickus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 Keep in mind that IDPA was invented by one of the greatest ever IPSC shooters, Bill Wilson. It is a game, with rules, that's all. So is Steel Challenge, invented by Mike Dalton and Mike Fichman, to practice for USPSA. Games, just like 3 Gun and Bianchi cup. It's not training or tactics, but it involves gun handling skills under somewhat stressful conditions of being timed and scored, so you can measure improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SierraAV8R Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) Actually, IDPA was developed by Bill, Ken Hackathorn, Walt Rauch, John Sayle and Larry Vickers - IPSC shooters, but also law enforcement, armed defense trainers, and a Delta Force Operator. They felt that IPSC wasn't relevant enough to armed defense. And I'd certainly agree that IDPA isn't "defensive training", but it does allow you to practice defensive principles. Edited October 16, 2015 by SierraAV8R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Since the average gun fight lasts 3 seconds and has 3 shots fired, there is no correlation between IDPA/USPSA and a real gun fight .... But, the next time I have to shoot 16 people, with a mandatory reload, from a holster which sticks out about 4", I'm all set. :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Since the average gun fight lasts 3 seconds and has 3 shots fired, there is no correlation between IDPA/USPSA and a real gun fight .... But, the next time I have to shoot 16 people, with a mandatory reload, from a holster which sticks out about 4", I'm all set. :devil: YEP!, I agree completely. They are all just games. But you are having fun and in the process getting a little trigger time and getting a bit better if, heaven forbid, you have to use a firearm in protection of yourself or your family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assaultthesalt Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 All I know is that when I shoot on a IDPA nite , I shoot in the NFC division.I shoot the way I was taught in my tactical classes.It drives me crazy to see shooters leaning and putting their guns past hard cover. LOL Bad habits that will get you killed in the real world. If I come around a corner and have a target in my sight picture and that target is a threat....its getting hosed.Im not worried about what the course of fire is. Just saying !!! That is why most of us are going to USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Since the average gun fight lasts 3 seconds and has 3 shots fired, there is no correlation between IDPA/USPSA and a real gun fight .... But, the next time I have to shoot 16 people, with a mandatory reload, from a holster which sticks out about 4", I'm all set. :devil: Ummmmm - rules says 2" !!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Since the average gun fight lasts 3 seconds and has 3 shots fired, there is no correlation between IDPA/USPSA and a real gun fight .... But, the next time I have to shoot 16 people, with a mandatory reload, from a holster which sticks out about 4", I'm all set. :devil: Ummmmm - rules says 2" !!!!!!!!!! To the inside of the grip, then add the 2011 ICE magwell, slide racker, ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Since the average gun fight lasts 3 seconds and has 3 shots fired, there is no correlation between IDPA/USPSA and a real gun fight .... But, the next time I have to shoot 16 people, with a mandatory reload, from a holster which sticks out about 4", I'm all set. :devil: Ummmmm - rules says 2" !!!!!!!!!! To the inside of the grip, then add the 2011 ICE magwell, slide racker, ............. "...from a holster which sticks out about 4"..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastly Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Its been a couple of decades since I played regularly, but:If you want a fun lesson in movement, cover, concealment and how much you can leave poking out, go play a few rounds of paintball with experienced or even new players for that matter.Half of your upper body? Umm, yea. Try it sometime and report back.Using soft cover (concealment) vs. 'hard' cover? Yup, they WILL find a way to sneak a ball through brush unbroken, or slowly coat you in a layer of broken ball spatter.Silly to correlate paintballs and bullets I know - but there is something to be learned as well. Edited October 23, 2015 by Beastly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I don't think it is silly to equate the two at all. One spatters you with paint and the other penetrates the body to damage organs and possibly kill you. But, both of those are the result of your getting shot by somebody using one of them. The mechanics of your getting shot are largely the same for either. Learn to avoid getting shot and you're ahead of the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1911 Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 All I know is that when I shoot on a IDPA nite , I shoot in the NFC division.I shoot the way I was taught in my tactical classes.It drives me crazy to see shooters leaning and putting their guns past hard cover. LOL Bad habits that will get you killed in the real world. If I come around a corner and have a target in my sight picture and that target is a threat....its getting hosed.Im not worried about what the course of fire is. Just saying !!! That is why most of us are going to USPSA. You hate IDPA because it is not tactical enough for your tastes, so you are going to USPSA instead? Well alrighty then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryff Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) With that said, I think people that participate in IDPA are leaps and bounds more capable of defending themselves in a gunfight than the majority of CHL holders that punch holes in paper MAYBE once a month. Your repeatedly practicing drawing your firearm (under light stress), getting rounds on target and reloading your firearm. Some light moving while shooting and all that stuff. I should be well prepared for any altercation at a poker table...Ha. I also think that a frequent IDPA shooter is more prepared than most criminals would be. This is assuming your not going up against a gang of bank robing ex-SF guys. So....why do so many comment about how IDPA is usless as defensive training? I understand its not "training", but I assume they would at least agree its better than not practicing at all. What would be the proper civilian training to prepare yourself for a real world gunfight? IDPA (and most gun games) are great because they refine and hone your weapon handling mechanics. Draws, transitions, recoil recovery, reloads, malfunction recoveries...all much-needed skills that are perfected by gun games. With IDPA, there is some added benefit of learning to shoot from around cover without exposing yourself to the target excessively. But gun games can also build false expectations of the what you will encounter in the real world...knowing how many targets you'll encounter, expecting them to stand still and perpendicular to your shooting position, rewarding you for moving through an environment as fast as possible. All of these are very bad expectations. The closest that a gun game can demonstrate how these are bad is to put on you on a completely blind stage (no knowing locations OR number of targets) at a major championship. But that is illegal in every shooting sport. So, shooting sports are fantastic for mechanics, but horrible for tactics. If you want to get trained for a real fight, then you need to be placed in situations where you don't know where the targets are and how many you need to engage, and then be taught the methodology for dealing with that situation. You'll find that the "go fast" mindset of IDPA and USPSA will actively work against you. Edited December 2, 2015 by Gryff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 A BIG +1 to what Gryff just said. I've been through a number of 'blind' shooting houses (Blackwater, Gunsite, military, etc.) and the difference between knowing the target array from a walkthrough and going in 'blind' is VERY significant. On the other hand, the vast majority of Real World gunfights (sorry kitten) occur close & fast. I've shot matches with some of the Federal FLETC instructors and had many conversations with them regarding RW happenings. Speed truly does kill.... unless your clearing a building...... and if you decide to do that by yourself you are a FOOL. The gun handling/speed skills developed in IDPA/USPSA/ICORE are advantageous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You have to recognize the difference between the games and training. Personally I have never found the "cover" that everyone talks about, but I damn sure not going to leave that position, if I ever do find it. I hate dark houses, so I just go into the corner and wait. House clearings are not for civilians, let the police do their job, besides they got body armor, radios, backup, full auto weapons, SWAT, all that cool stuff. Yea the CFLETC (now FLETC) was one of the best things the government has ever done with our tax $$$. I've shot competition with lots of different agency guys, and you can tell they appreciate the gun handling part of the game, but they also know the difference when they are back on duty. One thing I don't think we get enough of in competition is the very close quarter shooting, mainly because it wrecks the targets so quickly. I like to do contact distance drills, while moving, just to get that part in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Another +1. As for contact drills... yes, they trash targets and blow pasters all over the place. The solution is to cut the 0/A zone out of the target (leaving a big hole) and just score the rounds that don't go through the hole. It lets targets last longer.... and I think those contact drills are valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Except that then you have no evidence that the shooter hit the target at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADulay Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Except that then you have no evidence that the shooter hit the target at all. Really? At "arms length" distance to a target you have trouble determining if the shooter hit the center? So far it hasn't been a problem with us in the 4 years I've been doing this and we have a target in the stage like that almost every week. AD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 If the target is 24-36 inches away, one would have to be a complete maladroit to miss it entirely. And, if they do, the SO/RO will certainly see the big 'puff' of dirt at their feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 If there's no paper present, there's nothing to score. You have no idea whether there's a problem because you have no evidence. It's expeditious, yes, but if the bullet can't hit it, it's not a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) If there's no paper present, there's nothing to score. You have no idea whether there's a problem because you have no evidence. It's expeditious, yes, but if the bullet can't hit it, it's not a target. but it works fine from 4' away. Yes, the shooter could have sneakily loaded 6 blanks. yes, the shooter could have missed from 5' away without the SO noticing. In the real world however, it works fine. when you do a couple matches with the full target, and you see that every shooter gets every round on target, and there are maybe a total of 2 or 3 very close -1 hits, you get more confidence that all those bullets really are going where the gun is pointed. Edited December 3, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You do have a full sized target. You have just cut the 0 or A zone out of the center. The rest of the target remains, and hits outside of the 'open hole' are scored. From 24-36 inches away a full-sized IDPA/USPSA target is kinda big.... lots of 'brown around the hole'. It's not a difficult concept to grasp for most folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 besides, the real life contact drill tactical training is the important part, not the score. (meow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWSixgunner Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Better than nothing I guess. Everyone I've seen is there to game. Who wears the "shoot me first" vest in real life? The 5-shot revolver is one of the most popular carry guns, but the BUG rule changes have rendered it non-competitive. So many COFs require shooting with feet in motion. Everyone does it slo-mo Makes no sense to me,. I see the practicality of draw & Fire while retreating. But the target doesn't advance and competitors would get dismembered by a knife-wielding opponent if they retreated as slowly as in a match. I agree with 9x45 on that. IDK what the drills he's referring to are, but it would be infinitely more real-world to have the target advance rapidly, shooter can fire as many as he can till it reaches a certain point. No zero hits = penalty or something. Shooting while advancing makes less sense. If I need to advance on a threat, it makes more sense to run like heck to where I need to go, then shoot. Faster and more accurate than shooting while shuffling my feet in super-slow motion. It also seems to me a civilian should be focused on neutralizing or breaking contact with a threat, not moving towards the bad guy to get stabbed or shot. How you train is how you do things in real life. I've heard stories of LEOs in revolver days engaged in shootouts actually dumping empties in their hand and pocketing them before reloading. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Trying to equate any gun game to the real world is an exercise in futility. It is absolutely not training. It is a little bit of testing of certain skills and that is it. Oh, and it's fun. Do both, tactics and force on force style things aaandd the gun games. But don't confuse one as the other. REDACTED Edited December 4, 2015 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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