IDPA and the real world

[Nebwake]

One of the main benifits of IDPA for "real world" simulation is that it forces you to fully use available "cover" where as USPSA certainly does not. Fully exposing yourself around a "wall" vs actually working that cover as much as possible. That said, both are games that will give you bad habits if you do carry a gun for a living. Last year I was pretty involved in USPSA and actively training for it. When I went to a few tactics courses, I found myself shooting MUCH better, but made several grievous tactical mistakes. Especially with use of cover. That said, my shooting was greatly improved, and my movement from cover to cover was greatly improved as well. If you are looking for IDPA or USPSA to "teach" you how to be a "gunfighter" you will not be served well, however it is a great tool to improve aspects of shooting and movement, as long as you do not totally burn it into muscle memory and find youself in a bad situation because of it. Just like other sports I participate in, there is cross training involved. I view USPSA and 3 gun as that. Cross training.

[motosapiens]

One of the main benifits of IDPA for "real world" simulation is that it forces you to fully use available "cover" where as USPSA certainly does not.

if anything idpa forces you to treat concealment as if it were cover. Probably not the best idea tactically, but I don't care.

[Nebwake]

One of the main benifits of IDPA for "real world" simulation is that it forces you to fully use available "cover" where as USPSA certainly does not.

if anything idpa forces you to treat concealment as if it were cover. Probably not the best idea tactically, but I don't care.

Yea hence the quotes around the term "cover". And really most live fire tactics scenarios do the same thing. using a VTAC barricade, barrel, or other range props teach the skill of shooting in and around cover. Its usually pretty hard to get "real" cover on a live range. I have only shot a few ranges in the last 18 years that have had much in the way of actual ballistic cover.

[motosapiens]

One of the main benifits of IDPA for "real world" simulation is that it forces you to fully use available "cover" where as USPSA certainly does not.

if anything idpa forces you to treat concealment as if it were cover. Probably not the best idea tactically, but I don't care.

Yea hence the quotes around the term "cover". And really most live fire tactics scenarios do the same thing. using a VTAC barricade, barrel, or other range props teach the skill of shooting in and around cover. Its usually pretty hard to get "real" cover on a live range. I have only shot a few ranges in the last 18 years that have had much in the way of actual ballistic cover.

probably kinda hard to get real cover in a typical residential or commercial building too. In order to prevent kitten deaths, IDPA should have procedurals for taking 'cover' behind a residential wall or door, or car door, lol.

[Posvar]

One of the main benifits of IDPA for "real world" simulation is that it forces you to fully use available "cover" where as USPSA certainly does not.

if anything idpa forces you to treat concealment as if it were cover. Probably not the best idea tactically, but I don't care.

Yea hence the quotes around the term "cover". And really most live fire tactics scenarios do the same thing. using a VTAC barricade, barrel, or other range props teach the skill of shooting in and around cover. Its usually pretty hard to get "real" cover on a live range. I have only shot a few ranges in the last 18 years that have had much in the way of actual ballistic cover.

probably kinda hard to get real cover in a typical residential or commercial building too. In order to prevent kitten deaths, IDPA should have procedurals for taking 'cover' behind a residential wall or door, or car door, lol.

I agree. Haha

[CrashDodson]

How can you game an IDPA stage? The only thing that is not regulated is when to pass gas. But then you'd get a procedural for failure to do right.

Just had to clean water off my monitor that I spat out while laughing at this.

[CrashDodson]

I think the problem with IDPA, today, is that it has filled up with "Tactical Plumbers". Guys who have had no previous competition experience at all, are typically not LEO military, but have been thru Front Sight 17 times and think that a 6 second Bill Drill is bad ass. They are on the ones that tell you how to shoot the stage, and try to lecture you on what you did tactically wrong after the run. The term was coined by a Sheriff's corporal at a local match where one of these guys tried to tell him how to roll. We asked this guy what he did for a living? Day job as a plumber, our corporal told him his day job was teaching use of force.

In the beginning of time, when myself and the boys started our IDPA club at Apple Valley, in March of 98 and ran it until June of 2005, we were all experienced competitive shooters, some ex military, active/ex LEO, all of us had been thru one of the schools, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, BlackWater, and taken course by Mass, Hackethorn, Suarez, DR Middlebrooks, all those guys. So we saw this IDPA as a new game and thought it might be fun and different. We did our stages around the intent and premise of IDPA, and ran full house ammo in our actual carry guns from IWB holsters under regular shirts. A good match was usually only about 45-60 rounds. But it's still just a game, timed and scored, good for developing gun handling skills, but it is not tactics or training, although you can certainly practice any previous training in a match.

By the way a gamer is not a cheater, but rather someone who completely understands the rules down to the last ion, and knows how to get to the razors edge of them.

Wow, of the 100 or so guys that I regularly shoot with, this describes absolutely none of them. I personally would avoid that club.

I do agree that "gamers" tend to be guys with a firm understanding of the rules, but shouldn't everyone know the rules. It's sad that those who are too lazy to learn the rules denigrate those that are willing to put in a little effort to know the game they are playing.

I have not shot a ton of matches but we dont have any tactical type guys at our local match. We have us "gamers" and we have the guys that are there more for fun. We have a LEO or two show up occasionally but I have never seen someone try to be tactical at one of our matches. I shot two state matches last year and both times I was squaded with gamers like me. We all walked the stages air-gunning in our minds and all trying to win. I have been around guys that get excited over being extremely accurate vs trying to be quick, which is fine...but they dont win. I guess this 1 second per point thing might change that for some. But the high level gamers are still going to win either way.

[Posvar]

I have not shot a ton of matches but we dont have any tactical type guys at our local match. We have us "gamers" and we have the guys that are there more for fun. We have a LEO or two show up occasionally but I have never seen someone try to be tactical at one of our matches. I shot two state matches last year and both times I was squaded with gamers like me. We all walked the stages air-gunning in our minds and all trying to win. I have been around guys that get excited over being extremely accurate vs trying to be quick, which is fine...but they dont win. I guess this 1 second per point thing might change that for some. But the high level gamers are still going to win either way.

Well said

[Ray_Z]

How can you game an IDPA stage? The only thing that is not regulated is when to pass gas. But then you'd get a procedural for failure to do right.

Just had to clean water off my monitor that I spat out while laughing at this.

I'm sorry, I was in one of my better moods that day.

[RGinIdaho]

One of the main benifits of IDPA for "real world" simulation is that it forces you to fully use available "cover" where as USPSA certainly does not.

if anything idpa forces you to treat concealment as if it were cover. Probably not the best idea tactically, but I don't care.

Yea hence the quotes around the term "cover". And really most live fire tactics scenarios do the same thing. using a VTAC barricade, barrel, or other range props teach the skill of shooting in and around cover. Its usually pretty hard to get "real" cover on a live range. I have only shot a few ranges in the last 18 years that have had much in the way of actual ballistic cover.

probably kinda hard to get real cover in a typical residential or commercial building too. In order to prevent kitten deaths, IDPA should have procedurals for taking 'cover' behind a residential wall or door, or car door, lol.

Hey moto, noticed this quote from you in another thread and had a question. Wouldn't the same mindset that applies to tactics and motorcycles or hockey and shopping, also apply to simulated cover vs real cover?

"what is the point of even pretending that idpa or any other sport is going to cause your mind to get wired in a way that affects non sporting life? I play hockey, but it doesn't wire me to pin other shoppers to the wall so I can get to the checkout first? I raced motorcycles for years and it never caused me to start block-passing people on freeway on-ramps."

Just sayin trollin'

Edited January 14, 2016 by RGinIdaho

[Ray_Z]

Remember, There is no hard cover in a house.

[Beastly]

There is something odd and probably flawed about a sport/game where the people who work hardest at trying to win the game are looked down on as 'gamers' who are exploiting the rules - perhaps as opposed to playing in the 'spirit' of the game - and not winning.

[9x45]

Real world cover? Really? In the 7 incidents that I have been involved in, and all the guys I know that have had to go to guns over the last 47 years, LEO and CCW, there was no cover anywhere, only reaction and movement. I think there should be far more emphasis on contact distance engagement and movement in training.

[motosapiens]

Hey moto, noticed this quote from you in another thread and had a question. Wouldn't the same mindset that applies to tactics and motorcycles or hockey and shopping, also apply to simulated cover vs real cover?

"what is the point of even pretending that idpa or any other sport is going to cause your mind to get wired in a way that affects non sporting life? I play hockey, but it doesn't wire me to pin other shoppers to the wall so I can get to the checkout first? I raced motorcycles for years and it never caused me to start block-passing people on freeway on-ramps."

Just sayin trollin'

heh heh, that's a good point, but the issue to me is that the cover rule is so subjectively enforced that the sport would be better off without it. I personally don't think having to lean around stuff is bad, in fact it's a highly useful skill to be able to shoot while leaning around stuff. That's why we do so much of it in USPSA.

[GOF]

Well said 9X45. Most self defense incidents are fast & brutal. Speed and accuracy.... especially at close range (who gets into a legitimate SD situation at 20 yards?) are the keys to survival.

[CZinZA]

Americans

Our houses are all made of brick. Cover abounds

Sadly we're also terribly over-supplied with violent criminals

Sent by Jedi mind control

Edited January 14, 2016 by CZinZA

[Rangerdug]

Remember, There is no hard cover in a house.

how so? Not all houses are trailers. Nor are walls just dry wall.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited January 14, 2016 by Rangerdug

[TonytheTiger]

Remember, There is no hard cover in a house.

how so? Not all houses are trailers. Nor are walls just dry wall.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your not assuming a 2x4 stops bullets are you?

[Rangerdug]

That is complex answer, by themselves no. But put in simple term each obstacle that a bullet travels through, effects terminal ballistics. Degrading overall energy and effecting path of flight. When you are talking about drywall, nails, conduit, 2x4s, everything else you find in walls will increase survivability. That is not including the value of corners. It ain't much but it's something.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[9x45]

Americans

Our houses are all made of brick. Cover abounds

Sadly we're also terribly over-supplied with violent criminals

Sent by Jedi mind control

But I thought you guys gave up all your semi-auto rifles? Or was that Australia? Too bad your'e not under supplied with violent felons, the US has an ample supply to send you.

Edited January 15, 2016 by 9x45

[Ray_Z]

Real world cover? Really? In the 7 incidents that I have been involved in, and all the guys I know that have had to go to guns over the last 47 years, LEO and CCW, there was no cover anywhere, only reaction and movement. I think there should be far more emphasis on contact distance engagement and movement in training.

One of us misunderstood. In USPSA if a target or part of a target is painted black that area is considered hard cover. Any bullet that impacts solely in this black area does not receive a score.

Inside a house a bullet can go through half a dozen layers of dry wall and keep going into the outside.

[CrashDodson]

There is something odd and probably flawed about a sport/game where the people who work hardest at trying to win the game are looked down on as 'gamers' who are exploiting the rules - perhaps as opposed to playing in the 'spirit' of the game - and not winning.

You sir win this thread

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Bkreutz]

This is how I perceive IDPA rules

[9x45]

Real world cover? Really? In the 7 incidents that I have been involved in, and all the guys I know that have had to go to guns over the last 47 years, LEO and CCW, there was no cover anywhere, only reaction and movement. I think there should be far more emphasis on contact distance engagement and movement in training.

One of us misunderstood. In USPSA if a target or part of a target is painted black that area is considered hard cover. Any bullet that impacts solely in this black area does not receive a score.

Inside a house a bullet can go through half a dozen layers of dry wall and keep going into the outside.

Yes, I am familiar with USPSA rules regarding hard cover not scoring, no points down, no points earned for passing thru, unlike IDPA which scores pass thru's, or any other barrier in USPSA that a round passes thru for that matter, barrels, barricades,etx. But what I am confused about is this about a reference to the IDPA game and the so called real world, and not USPSA rules.

[Ray_Z]

There is something odd and probably flawed about a sport/game where the people who work hardest at trying to win the game are looked down on as 'gamers' who are exploiting the rules - perhaps as opposed to playing in the 'spirit' of the game - and not winning.

IDPA is ungameable. If you try you will get a [Failure to do right] procedural. Practicing your draws, run and gun, practicing shooting from cover, practicing slicing the pie, and reloading from cover are ways those that want to compete will get better at the sport.