IDPA and the real world

[motosapiens]

So many COFs require shooting with feet in motion. Everyone does it slo-mo Makes no sense to me,. I see the practicality of draw & Fire while retreating. But the target doesn't advance and competitors would get dismembered by a knife-wielding opponent if they retreated as slowly as in a match.

that's because shooting while moving in idpa is made up and pretend. shooters in another popular shooting sport often shoot while moving, not because it's required, but because it's faster, and they are not moving slow-mo.

[Beastly]

And they are balancing the calculation of how fast they can move relative to the accuracy they are able to achieve at that speed.

[SCPistolero]

I think the greatest benefit to IDPA is the feeling and eventual familiarization of what adrenaline dump feels like in a shooting situation. Then, the opportunity
to think (especially), practice and improve your shooting in spite of it. You need to know what adrenaline feels like and how to function when it does.

Edited December 5, 2015 by SCPistolero

[Rangerdug]

Trying to equate any gun game to the real world is an exercise in futility. It is absolutely not training. It is a little bit of testing of certain skills and that is it. Oh, and it's fun.

Do both, tactics and force on force style things aaandd the gun games. But don't confuse one as the other.

REDACTED

I couldn't disagree with you more on the training aspect. Every time you squeeze the trigger you are learning. If you are learning you are training. Gun games have had a huge impact on the tactical world. I will say that just because you shoot IDPA doesn't make you a tactical wizard

Edited December 20, 2015 by Rangerdug

[9x45]

I think the problem with IDPA, today, is that it has filled up with "Tactical Plumbers". Guys who have had no previous competition experience at all, are typically not LEO military, but have been thru Front Sight 17 times and think that a 6 second Bill Drill is bad ass. They are on the ones that tell you how to shoot the stage, and try to lecture you on what you did tactically wrong after the run. The term was coined by a Sheriff's corporal at a local match where one of these guys tried to tell him how to roll. We asked this guy what he did for a living? Day job as a plumber, our corporal told him his day job was teaching use of force.

In the beginning of time, when myself and the boys started our IDPA club at Apple Valley, in March of 98 and ran it until June of 2005, we were all experienced competitive shooters, some ex military, active/ex LEO, all of us had been thru one of the schools, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, BlackWater, and taken course by Mass, Hackethorn, Suarez, DR Middlebrooks, all those guys. So we saw this IDPA as a new game and thought it might be fun and different. We did our stages around the intent and premise of IDPA, and ran full house ammo in our actual carry guns from IWB holsters under regular shirts. A good match was usually only about 45-60 rounds. But it's still just a game, timed and scored, good for developing gun handling skills, but it is not tactics or training, although you can certainly practice any previous training in a match.

By the way a gamer is not a cheater, but rather someone who completely understands the rules down to the last ion, and knows how to get to the razors edge of them.

[racknrider]

I think the problem with IDPA, today, is that it has filled up with "Tactical Plumbers". Guys who have had no previous competition experience at all, are typically not LEO military, but have been thru Front Sight 17 times and think that a 6 second Bill Drill is bad ass. They are on the ones that tell you how to shoot the stage, and try to lecture you on what you did tactically wrong after the run. The term was coined by a Sheriff's corporal at a local match where one of these guys tried to tell him how to roll. We asked this guy what he did for a living? Day job as a plumber, our corporal told him his day job was teaching use of force.

In the beginning of time, when myself and the boys started our IDPA club at Apple Valley, in March of 98 and ran it until June of 2005, we were all experienced competitive shooters, some ex military, active/ex LEO, all of us had been thru one of the schools, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, BlackWater, and taken course by Mass, Hackethorn, Suarez, DR Middlebrooks, all those guys. So we saw this IDPA as a new game and thought it might be fun and different. We did our stages around the intent and premise of IDPA, and ran full house ammo in our actual carry guns from IWB holsters under regular shirts. A good match was usually only about 45-60 rounds. But it's still just a game, timed and scored, good for developing gun handling skills, but it is not tactics or training, although you can certainly practice any previous training in a match.

By the way a gamer is not a cheater, but rather someone who completely understands the rules down to the last ion, and knows how to get to the razors edge of them.

Wow, of the 100 or so guys that I regularly shoot with, this describes absolutely none of them. I personally would avoid that club.

I do agree that "gamers" tend to be guys with a firm understanding of the rules, but shouldn't everyone know the rules. It's sad that those who are too lazy to learn the rules denigrate those that are willing to put in a little effort to know the game they are playing.

[9x45]

racknrider, Tactical Plumbers are everywhere, not just one club, shoot the game long enough and you will run into them. It's not limited to IDPA either, we had one at the USPSA match yesterday, and the guy he jumped on was a 2nd time shooter who happened to be the son of a local Sheriff's deputy who is the currently the departments firearms instructor. He was excused from the squad.........

Very impressive that you know 100 shooters by name, by the way

Edited December 28, 2015 by 9x45

[ArrDave]

I think the problem with IDPA, today, is that it has filled up with "Tactical Plumbers". Guys who have had no previous competition experience at all, are typically not LEO military, but have been thru Front Sight 17 times and think that a 6 second Bill Drill is bad ass. They are on the ones that tell you how to shoot the stage, and try to lecture you on what you did tactically wrong after the run. The term was coined by a Sheriff's corporal at a local match where one of these guys tried to tell him how to roll. We asked this guy what he did for a living? Day job as a plumber, our corporal told him his day job was teaching use of force.

In the beginning of time, when myself and the boys started our IDPA club at Apple Valley, in March of 98 and ran it until June of 2005, we were all experienced competitive shooters, some ex military, active/ex LEO, all of us had been thru one of the schools, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, BlackWater, and taken course by Mass, Hackethorn, Suarez, DR Middlebrooks, all those guys. So we saw this IDPA as a new game and thought it might be fun and different. We did our stages around the intent and premise of IDPA, and ran full house ammo in our actual carry guns from IWB holsters under regular shirts. A good match was usually only about 45-60 rounds. But it's still just a game, timed and scored, good for developing gun handling skills, but it is not tactics or training, although you can certainly practice any previous training in a match.

By the way a gamer is not a cheater, but rather someone who completely understands the rules down to the last ion, and knows how to get to the razors edge of them.

I don't know that they are tactical plumbers just lonely dudes living the gun world fantasy and want folks to talk to. We have 4-5 who generally are single (or might as well be) and way more absorbed in giving unsolicited advice than actually competing it seems. The good news is folks can and do graduate, shot with a dude who forever overhand racked his slide, admitting that the other way was faster, but if he was ever in a gun fight and picked up an unfamiliar gun he could reload it. I asked him where he would find the matching unfamiliar magazine. A week or so later, he stopped doing that and fast forward a year and he beat me to master.

Sent from an iDevice. Please forgive any grammatical or spelling errors. If the post doesn't make sense or is not amusing then it is technology's fault and most certainly not operator error.

[Ray_Z]

Let's not dissect IDPA or USPSA. Go and have a good time shooting. Good fellowship, good training, a great common denominator to meet new friends.

[Rangerdug]

I am amused by the term gamer! IDPA is a game, an technically we are all "gamers". Even in the real world we all looking for an edge. Each stage is a puzzle we as shooters are trying to unravel. Identify-Assess-React. Works in the real world too. The guys that love the term "gamer" are the the guys who are getting beat repeatedly, but instead of raising there level of play, the gamers obviously cheated. Unless IDPA starts running blind stages, everybody is gaming. Some better then others.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited December 28, 2015 by Rangerdug

[Swanny10]

I was once called a gamer because I practice. Not the classifier mind you. Just practice in general. Of course they also shot 1911's that malfunctioned twice a match. So I was probably also a gamer because my gun went bang everytime.

[Ray_Z]

How can you game an IDPA stage? The only thing that is not regulated is when to pass gas. But then you'd get a procedural for failure to do right.

[Rangerdug]

How can you game an IDPA stage? The only thing that is not regulated is when to pass gas. But then you'd get a procedural for failure to do right.

LOL

[Manwithnoname]

Being an LEO I wouldn't gun fight how idpa or uspsa plays out by any means. It would just get you killed. When I first started competing there was a stage where we had to open a door and fire at a few targets from the doorway and move on. Tactically and ideally you would never do that. I've always been trained and practiced to go through the door. So when I opened the door I stepped through and fired and got penalty points. Now when comparing idpa or uspsa to a normal police qualification course it's light years better for skills developed than just statically standing and shooting at a target like ppc. I think if you gave an above average competitor a week or so training in solid real world tactics they'd be heads and tales better than most in law enforcement.

[Rangerdug]

Being an LEO I wouldn't gun fight how idpa or uspsa plays out by any means. It would just get you killed. When I first started competing there was a stage where we had to open a door and fire at a few targets from the doorway and move on. Tactically and ideally you would never do that. I've always been trained and practiced to go through the door. So when I opened the door I stepped through and fired and got penalty points. Now when comparing idpa or uspsa to a normal police qualification course it's light years better for skills developed than just statically standing and shooting at a target like ppc. I think if you gave an above average competitor a week or so training in solid real world tactics they'd be heads and tales better than most in law enforcement.

confused a bit by not shooting through a door. In the tactical world you would still "pie" the door as to clear as much of the room as I can. Badges are not bulletproof. Especially if I am by myself or I have the time. USPSA and IDPA in this case just show me my limits. It's nice knowing the targets don't shoot back.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ray_Z]

Being an LEO I wouldn't gun fight how idpa or uspsa plays out by any means. It would just get you killed. When I first started competing there was a stage where we had to open a door and fire at a few targets from the doorway and move on. Tactically and ideally you would never do that. I've always been trained and practiced to go through the door. So when I opened the door I stepped through and fired and got penalty points. Now when comparing idpa or uspsa to a normal police qualification course it's light years better for skills developed than just statically standing and shooting at a target like ppc. I think if you gave an above average competitor a week or so training in solid real world tactics they'd be heads and tales better than most in law enforcement.

Being a LEO [ and by the way thank you for your service ] it made you think about that type of confrontation. And you got some trigger time in with that mind set.

[BillR1]

How can you game an IDPA stage? The only thing that is not regulated is when to pass gas. But then you'd get a procedural for failure to do right.

It sounds like you may have some stage designers with very little imagination. In the matches I attend in this area, there are always stages with different ways to shoot them.

[pr1042]

My biggest issues (not even a big issue though) with IDPA are that I can't use my actual carry gear (AIWB holster and mag pouch) and in battery reloads are penalized. I don't see it as defense training whatsoever though, just a chance to work on skills.

I still play along and just use strong side IWB though as IDPA is the only weeknight option around here

Edited December 29, 2015 by pr1042

[Manwithnoname]

Being an LEO I wouldn't gun fight how idpa or uspsa plays out by any means. It would just get you killed. When I first started competing there was a stage where we had to open a door and fire at a few targets from the doorway and move on. Tactically and ideally you would never do that. I've always been trained and practiced to go through the door. So when I opened the door I stepped through and fired and got penalty points. Now when comparing idpa or uspsa to a normal police qualification course it's light years better for skills developed than just statically standing and shooting at a target like ppc. I think if you gave an above average competitor a week or so training in solid real world tactics they'd be heads and tales better than most in law enforcement.

confused a bit by not shooting through a door. In the tactical world you would still "pie" the door as to clear as much of the room as I can. Badges are not bulletproof. Especially if I am by myself or I have the time. USPSA and IDPA in this case just show me my limits. It's nice knowing the targets don't shoot back.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I couldn't agree with you more about badges not being bullet proof. I guess I should qualify what I meant. I'm not a swat team member and don't do any dynamic entries. I am not a hero as they unfortunately are called that in a memorial service. In the type of law enforcement I do if I am at a door especially the main entrance I'm calling anyone I can out then like you said clearing as much as possible from the door before entering. If for some reason I don't feel it's safe I won't go through a door. I only shoot uspsa so the best way to shoot the stage was open the door quickly and shoot from the door way then move. We can talk tactics all day but when I went through that stage because of what I've trained I FELT it would have been better to clear the main area going in and dig the corner and continue to move while communicating with my team. Obviously that wouldn't work for a one man entry. Hopefully I would never do a one man entry. obviously just like a stage plan, tactics have to be adjusted according to what's at hand. I feel that competition has really brought my gun handling skills way up and I think law enforcement is done a disservice with the ppc quals. I know lawyers need to quantify skill somehow. It is nice knowing targets don't shoot back and that's why this is fun.

[RGinIdaho]

IDPA and the real world

Now there's a title that makes you laugh.

I enjoy IDPA. I like the folks, the trigger time and basic gun handling practice are great. I also don't mind a course of fire that makes me do something outside my personal comfort zone or training, that's probably what I find most valuable, I have to do something I wouldn't normally do so I have think a bit more on my feet. But that's where it ends for me.

It's a lot different than USPSA because I can't walk the stage down multiple times choreographing every move. I like USPSA, it's still a chance to maintain basic gun handling skills and making good hits quickly but in USPA, there's a lot less to think about after the buzzer. You can still get a plan together in IDPA but there are still a couple of extra things to think about on the fly and you can't walk it down and ingrain details as easily.

What's starting to turn me away from IDPA is the constant change in rules. Not minor tweaks, things that change the flavor of game for no apparent reason other than to fit some small group's view of "tactical" handgun use in the "real world."

[Rangerdug]

IDPA and the real world

Now there's a title that makes you laugh.

I enjoy IDPA. I like the folks, the trigger time and basic gun handling practice are great. I also don't mind a course of fire that makes me do something outside my personal comfort zone or training, that's probably what I find most valuable, I have to do something I wouldn't normally do so I have think a bit more on my feet. But that's where it ends for me.

It's a lot different than USPSA because I can't walk the stage down multiple times choreographing every move. I like USPSA, it's still a chance to maintain basic gun handling skills and making good hits quickly but in USPA, there's a lot less to think about after the buzzer. You can still get a plan together in IDPA but there are still a couple of extra things to think about on the fly and you can't walk it down and ingrain details as easily.

What's starting to turn me away from IDPA is the constant change in rules. Not minor tweaks, things that change the flavor of game for no apparent reason other than to fit some small group's view of "tactical" handgun use in the "real world."

I agree completely

[mjschwartz74]

I see frequent comments about how IDPA is not real world...blah blah....if you encoutered a real life defense situation and IDPA was your training you would be dead...blah blah.

So....why do so many comment about how IDPA is usless as defensive training? I understand its not "training", but I assume they would at least agree its better than not practicing at all. What would be the proper civilian training to prepare yourself for a real world gunfight?

Because IDPA promoted itself as such. Still on their homepage, they infer that they are:

"The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters."

Some IDPA shooters will tout that they are defensively trained...which they are not... and will say that IDPA is NOT a game...which it is...hence the comment you ask about throughout the shooting community.

While any shooting competitor is better off than someone just punching holes in paper once a month, and it will help with your gun handling skills, it is NOT defensive training.

[Ray_Z]

How can you game an IDPA stage? The only thing that is not regulated is when to pass gas. But then you'd get a procedural for failure to do right.

I apologize for making that statement. IDPA is just a bit different from USPSA. The stages are more structured but the ending is the same. Trigger time, fellowship, and a mindset for that type of scenario. Civilian and LEO alike get something out of it. Anyone that has shot either walked away talking about the experience for days afterward.

LEO's shoot IDPA free at ORSA. All they have to do is furnish their ammo. Personally I think the department should furnish that. It is training.

Before we moved here, the club I shot at had a "cop squad". This was just for full time officers. It made them feel more at ease and not like they were being watched by the other shooters.

[IronArcher]

A couple of observances:

Both IDPA and USPSA shoot at torso sized targets.

One has more rules, one has fewer.

Neither is optimal training for the real world... But I would think that after getting pounded by "cover! cover!" And PEs for shooting the farthest guy from you first, might get you thinking a little bit about the defensive side of things, vs. strictly offense.

No, the cover rule isn't set up to be truly "tactical" ... Do you really want that?

And while "most" self defense situations are done at close range and take less than 3 shots, learning to hit 3 different targets at 10 yards makes the close 3 round stuff easier (save for anything under 2 yards).

Learning the fundamentals of trigger control and clearing a jam CAN help in the "real world".

It's not true training, but it's not wasted effort either.

One question for the IDPA haters:

What does the "P" in USPSA and IPSC stand for?

I just don't understand the bickering.

[racerba]

One question for the IDPA haters:

What does the "P" in USPSA and IPSC stand for?

I don't hate IDPA...I hate the touting of IDPA to be defensive training and the subjectivity of the SO calling the rules. I never said it was a wasted effort...only the wasted SO time to fine all the FTDR actions. The "P" stands for "practical" - nothing there about defensive training. Practical means using the pistol in the scenario given in the most practical way the shooter can think of to solve the problem...