peterthefish Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Oh, one more thing, appendix IWB would be acceptable if that's the way you roll. Still no shoulder holsters, or small of the back, gotta have some rules you know.I think there's at least one guy shooting Limited from an AIWB holster. That would be me. Sorry, I meant good / non-old-fart shooter. If you shoot AIWB why the comment it would be acceptable if it already is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Adding unnecessary time to the stage is uncalled for. Using the safety area is better, IMO. + 1 for that, As small as a gun bag is the RO is not there to be your butler/ man servant, hand it to a shooting buddy so the RO can do his assigned job not be your own personal bag carrier. Edited July 29, 2015 by terrydoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 If you shoot AIWB why the comment it would be acceptable if it already is?, yea, that's what I meant, but I don't think alot of guys know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 A parking lot is not always part of the match, depending on how the range is set up. It's extremely common at several large ranges in the West to handle guns and holsters at cars, especially for those who carry daily the same gun with which they compete. Like it or not, but USPSA doesn't address it. USPSA rules allow for a load/unload station, and if one is provided, it must be used in lieu of entering the match area with a loaded gun to handle it somewhere there. Exactly. I don't think this how they roll in other parts of the country, though, due to a combination of range rules and local firearm laws. These non-USPSA rules/laws are attributed to USPSA on a topic where the rule book is actually silent. The USPSA rule book says nothing about parking lots nor how to define the boundaries of the match area that will be governed by USPSA rules. I can tell you this -- at most of the ranges where we play the game in Eastern PA and NJ, if you handle guns at your car there's a better than even chance that you'll wind up pointing it in the direction of the folks setting up the match, other competitors, spectators, or range members. That's simply the reality of how little land there is, and how it's laid out. There aren't any good backstops in most of those places -- so we're not going to let you handle a gun there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 "Handling firearms in parking areas is deemed unsafe gun handling" is not a USPSA rule. It's a rule certain ranges have. 10.5.1 Read the rule book please. 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. ___ You read it. Then tell me where you see the parking lot explicitly defined as part of the match area. If you are there to shoot a USPSA-sanctioned match, the parking area is part of the match. Don't handle your gun at your vehicle and there won't be a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Oh, one more thing, appendix IWB would be acceptable if that's the way you roll. Still no shoulder holsters, or small of the back, gotta have some rules you know. I think there's at least one guy shooting Limited from an AIWB holster. That would be me. Had to change to a regular OWB holster at a big match in AZ one time because the RO's didn't dig it (no rule against it). But if you go against an RO at a big match, he is on the radio with his RO buds and you are now a DQ/Procedural magnet. So I put on my old BladeTech solid laminate from decades ago and then we were all friends again. Better to have happy ROs. Or some ROs that know there is no restriction for AIWB holsters in some divisions. Edited July 30, 2015 by PKT1106 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 "Handling firearms in parking areas is deemed unsafe gun handling" is not a USPSA rule. It's a rule certain ranges have. 10.5.1 Read the rule book please. 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. ___ You read it. Then tell me where you see the parking lot explicitly defined as part of the match area. If you are there to shoot a USPSA-sanctioned match, the parking area is part of the match. Don't handle your gun at your vehicle and there won't be a question. What about the guy parked right next to you that is there for some other activity? Obviously, the parking lot may very well NOT be part of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 A parking lot is not always part of the match, depending on how the range is set up. It's extremely common at several large ranges in the West to handle guns and holsters at cars, especially for those who carry daily the same gun with which they compete. Like it or not, but USPSA doesn't address it. USPSA rules allow for a load/unload station, and if one is provided, it must be used in lieu of entering the match area with a loaded gun to handle it somewhere there. Exactly. I don't think this how they roll in other parts of the country, though, due to a combination of range rules and local firearm laws. These non-USPSA rules/laws are attributed to USPSA on a topic where the rule book is actually silent. The USPSA rule book says nothing about parking lots nor how to define the boundaries of the match area that will be governed by USPSA rules. I can tell you this -- at most of the ranges where we play the game in Eastern PA and NJ, if you handle guns at your car there's a better than even chance that you'll wind up pointing it in the direction of the folks setting up the match, other competitors, spectators, or range members. That's simply the reality of how little land there is, and how it's laid out. There aren't any good backstops in most of those places -- so we're not going to let you handle a gun there. And that's fine. If YOUR range is set up a certain way that YOUR range has a rule about it, fine. But don't say it's a USPSA rule when it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 A parking lot is not always part of the match, depending on how the range is set up. It's extremely common at several large ranges in the West to handle guns and holsters at cars, especially for those who carry daily the same gun with which they compete. Like it or not, but USPSA doesn't address it. USPSA rules allow for a load/unload station, and if one is provided, it must be used in lieu of entering the match area with a loaded gun to handle it somewhere there. Exactly. I don't think this how they roll in other parts of the country, though, due to a combination of range rules and local firearm laws. These non-USPSA rules/laws are attributed to USPSA on a topic where the rule book is actually silent. The USPSA rule book says nothing about parking lots nor how to define the boundaries of the match area that will be governed by USPSA rules. I can tell you this -- at most of the ranges where we play the game in Eastern PA and NJ, if you handle guns at your car there's a better than even chance that you'll wind up pointing it in the direction of the folks setting up the match, other competitors, spectators, or range members. That's simply the reality of how little land there is, and how it's laid out. There aren't any good backstops in most of those places -- so we're not going to let you handle a gun there. And that's fine. If YOUR range is set up a certain way that YOUR range has a rule about it, fine. But don't say it's a USPSA rule when it isn't. So when you're handling a gun in the parking lot -- are you doing it under the direction/supervision of an RO? Are you handling it at a safe table? Nope -- ok, here's your DQ. Good luck with the arbitration -- I get to pick the members of the carb committee..... And that's me being nice -- because the range might ban you from the property for endangering other folks...... You say there's nothing in the rule book to cover the parking lot as part of the "USPSA match." You may be right -- but there's also nothing stating that the parking lot is exempt from USPSA matches. Either way -- if you want to handle a gun at the car, it'll be a really short match..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I can't fathom why some of you think there is no rule against it. Rule book says WHERE and when you may handle a gun. It doesn't have to say where you can't. And there are no local rules being mentioned. We follow USPSA rules at all of our matches. Indoor or outdoor, level I thru level III, wherever, the rules do not permit gun handling wherever you feel like it. What do you mean, "what if the guy parked next to you is there for another event"? He clearly would not fall under the rules if he is there to shoot skeet or whatever. This isn't hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Ain't no RO at my house when I'm handling my gun for the express purpose of getting ready for the USPSA MATCH, either. Guess that's a DQ; nothing in the rule book said my house was exempt. Or it could be that I'm not a USPSA shooter until I've checked in for the match. You have a case if I go sign in, and then go back to my truck and handle guns. You're right, this isn't hard. But I'll bet there is a reason NROI isn't clarifying this. Edited July 30, 2015 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Nobody wants to ask the NROI about this? I thought Troy McManus and John Amidon were on this forum. Edited July 30, 2015 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 You're right, this isn't hard. But I'll bet there is a reason DROI isn't clarifying this. Did you ask them? I mean there is a procedure for it and everything. As far as I'm concerned, if you parked at the range to participate in a USPSA match, you are under USPSA rules. As far as I know, I'm at least the 3ed match director in this thread to say so. If you are there to shoot skeet, you are not the USPSA match and I can't DQ you. If you are home you are not at the match. Look it, when you show up at a match and I don't know you, I have no bloody idea if you know which end of the gun is the one that goes pew-pew and I don't want you handling your firearm and pointing it at other people at the range. I've seen ALL kinds of shooters show up at our matches, from GM's to "I'm not sure what this button here on my gun does, cause I only bought it this morning and I don't read good so the manual is terrible because there are not enough cartoon kitten pictures". So for everyone's sake, leave it in your bag until you find out where the safe table is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Amidon is retired and very seldom if ever responded directly to this forum. Although Troy does respond directly occasionally, I would guess he has other things to do that might be more pressing. There is a saying about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. This seems to be how many shooters can dance on the head of an RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 You're right, this isn't hard. But I'll bet there is a reason DROI isn't clarifying this. Did you ask them? I mean there is a procedure for it and everything. As far as I'm concerned, if you parked at the range to participate in a USPSA match, you are under USPSA rules. As far as I know, I'm at least the 3ed match director in this thread to say so. If you are there to shoot skeet, you are not the USPSA match and I can't DQ you. If you are home you are not at the match. Look it, when you show up at a match and I don't know you, I have no bloody idea if you know which end of the gun is the one that goes pew-pew and I don't want you handling your firearm and pointing it at other people at the range. I've seen ALL kinds of shooters show up at our matches, from GM's to "I'm not sure what this button here on my gun does, cause I only bought it this morning and I don't read good so the manual is terrible because there are not enough cartoon kitten pictures". So for everyone's sake, leave it in your bag until you find out where the safe table is. Yeah, I agree. Besides, most ranges have a policy that when you pull into the range during a match day, you had to check in with the MD - period. It didn't matter what you were there for. As long as they came by to let me know they were going to shoot something else and not the match, that is fine. I would just remind them of the cold range rules and off they go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Ahhh! Very refreshing to hear rational comments. I love you guys! Well, you know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 You're right, this isn't hard. But I'll bet there is a reason DROI isn't clarifying this. Did you ask them? I mean there is a procedure for it and everything. As far as I'm concerned, if you parked at the range to participate in a USPSA match, you are under USPSA rules. As far as I know, I'm at least the 3ed match director in this thread to say so. If you are there to shoot skeet, you are not the USPSA match and I can't DQ you. If you are home you are not at the match. Look it, when you show up at a match and I don't know you, I have no bloody idea if you know which end of the gun is the one that goes pew-pew and I don't want you handling your firearm and pointing it at other people at the range. I've seen ALL kinds of shooters show up at our matches, from GM's to "I'm not sure what this button here on my gun does, cause I only bought it this morning and I don't read good so the manual is terrible because there are not enough cartoon kitten pictures". So for everyone's sake, leave it in your bag until you find out where the safe table is. Yeah, I agree. Besides, most ranges have a policy that when you pull into the range during a match day, you had to check in with the MD - period. It didn't matter what you were there for. As long as they came by to let me know they were going to shoot something else and not the match, that is fine. I would just remind them of the cold range rules and off they go. Nice to hear how things are done at YOUR RANGE, and "most ranges" that you have experience with. Unfortunately, that is irrelevant to a discussion about USPSA rules. None of you, including it seems three match directors, have addressed the question of a match at an indoor range. Where is your magic line and magic time to start enforcing the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Simply put Mac you pay your money you take the risk. If you go to a sanctioned IPSC or USPSA match you play by THOSE rules, if you choose to handle your firearm outside of the safe areas or under the supervision of an RO you run the risk of being DQ'd if seen. You will then be DQ'd from the match and if you chose to put up your $100 for arbitration I would strongly suggest the decision would be upheld and you would go home $100 poorer. You can argue all you like, but the rulebook at a sanctioned IPSC /USPSA match OVERRULE local rules, otherwise the match would not be a sanction match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 None of you, including it seems three match directors, have addressed the question of a match at an indoor range. Where is your magic line and magic time to start enforcing the rules? Come on dude, ask a hard one. "Magical" lines are the property line and magical start time is the published start time of match or a match that build in the morning then whenever we start building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaterHead Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Ahhh! Very refreshing to hear rational comments. I love you guys! Well, you know what I mean. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Interesting. The times that I RO'ed a shooter with a bagged gun, I have told them "make ready". They hand me the bag, I just either hang on to it with my non-timer hand or put it under my arm or stuff it under my belt. When the stage is over, I give them "If clear, hammer down holster". If they holster, I call range is clear and hand them the bag. If they want the bag, I give it to them and when the gun is secure, I call range is clear. No need for any blustering or drama. I don't recall many runs where I needed two hands and if I did, I would simply drop the bag and do what I needed to do. There are no rules against it and it hardly worth getting all spun up over. Chill and run the shooter. Sanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Simply put Mac you pay your money you take the risk. If you go to a sanctioned IPSC or USPSA match you play by THOSE rules, if you choose to handle your firearm outside of the safe areas or under the supervision of an RO you run the risk of being DQ'd if seen. You will then be DQ'd from the match and if you chose to put up your $100 for arbitration I would strongly suggest the decision would be upheld and you would go home $100 poorer. You can argue all you like, but the rulebook at a sanctioned IPSC /USPSA match OVERRULE local rules, otherwise the match would not be a sanction match. This happened at a recent Nationals. Shooter finished last day, last stage, walked to his car, unbelted with gun in holster, an RO was passing by and saw it. Called the DQ, so bascially wasted all that time and effort by doing such a silly and small act. Just not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I think the gun is light compared to all the ammo on my CR speed belt for three gun. Keep the gun holstered and remove unnecessary ammo until your either on deck or in the hole, then load up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Keep the gun holstered and remove unnecessary ammo +1. Exactly what I have been doing for 8 years. A 2.5 lb gun or 15 lbs of ammo - take off the mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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