Stupid question - walking around with holstered guns

[elguapo]

LOL, I can't believe this is a real topic.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Any excuse to argue!

[Youngeyes]

Any excuse to argue!

We engage in intellectual discourse. We debate and advance the depths of shooting knowledge. We investigate and explore the mysteries of the rules of our sport. We accept advice and advise in return. We DO NOT argue.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I disagree.

[ChuckS]

Perhaps this is just a contradiction?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDjCqjzbvJY

[kevin c]

As far as the OP's original question goes:

If I'm RO'ing and the shooter comes to the start position bagged, one third of the time he drops the bag at the start position, leaves it there, and when the stage is done scoring, goes back to get it and then goes to a safe area to rebag: one third of the time I will offer to hold it for him by holding out a hand for it, it which case I'll give it back to him at ULASC.; one third of the time the shooter declines the offer and hands off to a friend there for the purpose, and sometimes that friend will take the bag from me. More than half the time it's the first stage of the day and the shooter stays holstered. For those who rebag, overall I'd say I see it once every few months and usually it's an Open shooter. It's been pretty much that way at my home range for all of the 20 plus years I've been shooting USPSA matches.

As far as the parking lot goes, at my West Coast range you will get DQ'd even just wearing a holstered gun while going out of the gate between the action range and the parking area unless you have a CCW, no handling required. When we host our sectional and use ranges outside the Action Range, competitors can carry holstered on a path to the outside stages, but the are still not allowed to go to their cars until the gun is bagged in one of the Safe Areas.

As far as the last goes, nobody I know has ever questioned whether this was by the book or not, and whether it should be "allowed" or not at a sanctioned match, including our SC's over the years, one of whom it pretty high up in NROI. If somebody should decide to test the waters with an arb I rather think they would be out the money and likely also induce a few eye rolls or head scratches.

[pskys2]

As far as the OP's original question goes:

If I'm RO'ing and the shooter comes to the start position bagged, one third of the time he drops the bag at the start position, leaves it there, and when the stage is done scoring, goes back to get it and then goes to a safe area to rebag: one third of the time I will offer to hold it for him by holding out a hand for it, it which case I'll give it back to him at ULASC.; one third of the time the shooter declines the offer and hands off to a friend there for the purpose, and sometimes that friend will take the bag from me. More than half the time it's the first stage of the day and the shooter stays holstered. For those who rebag, overall I'd say I see it once every few months and usually it's an Open shooter. It's been pretty much that way at my home range for all of the 20 plus years I've been shooting USPSA matches.

As far as the parking lot goes, at my West Coast range you will get DQ'd even just wearing a holstered gun while going out of the gate between the action range and the parking area unless you have a CCW, no handling required. When we host our sectional and use ranges outside the Action Range, competitors can carry holstered on a path to the outside stages, but the are still not allowed to go to their cars until the gun is bagged in one of the Safe Areas.

As far as the last goes, nobody I know has ever questioned whether this was by the book or not, and whether it should be "allowed" or not at a sanctioned match, including our SC's over the years, one of whom it pretty high up in NROI. If somebody should decide to test the waters with an arb I rather think they would be out the money and likely also induce a few eye rolls or head scratches.

in the '80's we had a big match in KC, Ks at an indoor range, it was quite common to stay holstered (and unloaded) and walk across a busy highway to the Pizza Place for lunch and to check stats. Until the 2nd or 3rd year and someone capped off a round showing it to a gunsmith, luckily nobody was hurt but the practice stopped.

Most ranges in the midwest have the parking lot on range premises. If they are not, then it is not against any rules to not allow the competitors to carry firearms there. Especially considering local political and legal issues.

While on the range, safety areas and while on the bays it's ok as long as the rules are followed. Side note back in the day if you dropped an unloaded gun while walking around the range you were DQ'd. That changed I believe in the late '80's early '90's.

[kmca]

As far as the OP's original question goes:

If I'm RO'ing and the shooter comes to the start position bagged, one third of the time he drops the bag at the start position, leaves it there, and when the stage is done scoring, goes back to get it and then goes to a safe area to rebag: one third of the time I will offer to hold it for him by holding out a hand for it, it which case I'll give it back to him at ULASC.; one third of the time the shooter declines the offer and hands off to a friend there for the purpose, and sometimes that friend will take the bag from me. More than half the time it's the first stage of the day and the shooter stays holstered. For those who rebag, overall I'd say I see it once every few months and usually it's an Open shooter. It's been pretty much that way at my home range for all of the 20 plus years I've been shooting USPSA matches.

As far as the parking lot goes, at my West Coast range you will get DQ'd even just wearing a holstered gun while going out of the gate between the action range and the parking area unless you have a CCW, no handling required. When we host our sectional and use ranges outside the Action Range, competitors can carry holstered on a path to the outside stages, but the are still not allowed to go to their cars until the gun is bagged in one of the Safe Areas.

As far as the last goes, nobody I know has ever questioned whether this was by the book or not, and whether it should be "allowed" or not at a sanctioned match, including our SC's over the years, one of whom it pretty high up in NROI. If somebody should decide to test the waters with an arb I rather think they would be out the money and likely also induce a few eye rolls or head scratches.

I know the rule and I follow it, but isn't that a gun club rule?. Just a question....if a new shooter can get DQ'd for handling his gun at the car, it is obviously a part of the range, but you can't go back to your car with a holstered gun without being DQ'd? Aren't these two acts opposing each other by USPSA rules, since your parking lot is considered part of the range?

[GunBugBit]

As far as the parking lot goes, at my West Coast range you will get DQ'd even just wearing a holstered gun while going out of the gate between the action range and the parking area unless you have a CCW, no handling required. When we host our sectional and use ranges outside the Action Range, competitors can carry holstered on a path to the outside stages, but the are still not allowed to go to their cars until the gun is bagged in one of the Safe Areas.

Local laws are in play here. I don't get the "unless you have a CCW." You would be open-carrying in your example, and I thought open carry was mostly illegal in CA.

I still say some of you guys are seeing people getting DQ'd and wrongly assume the DQs are based on the USPSA rulebook when in fact the DQs could be based on violations of range rules and/or local laws.

I agree with DQs based on violations of local laws and range rules (of course).

Edited August 6, 2015 by GunBugBit

[Sarge]

You do agree or don't agree?

[GunBugBit]

DQs should occur if laws are being violated, or if range rules are being violated, or if the USPSA rulebook says a given infraction subjects the competitor to disqualification.

____

10.3 Match Disqualification – General Regulations
10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match, and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining courses of fire in that match regardless of the schedule or physical layout of the match.

____

I think most would agree that illegal activities or range rule violations would be covered by "any other prohibited activity."

Edited August 6, 2015 by GunBugBit

[Sarge]

No way. You can not be DQED for anything other than violating a Uspsa rule. You can be banned from a range or arrested I guess but not DQED.

Rule 3.3

Edited August 6, 2015 by Sarge

[Nimitz]

GunBugBit ... you may be forgetting that for a USPSA Sanctioned match the local range cannot set a rule which is in violation of USPSA rules .... I know it is done but when HQ finds out about it and an investigation is done and the local range still insists their rule must be followed which violates a USPSA rule the club will have it's USPSA sanction pulled ...

Edited August 6, 2015 by Nimitz

[Sarge]

GunBugBit ... you may be forgetting that for a USPSA Sanctioned match the local range cannot set a rule which is in violation of USPSA rules .... I know it is done but when HQ finds out about it and an investigation is done and the local range still insists their rule must be followed which violates a USPSA rule the club will have it's USPSA sanction pulled ...

OR HQ can give permission. This is not common in order to allow members to go anywhere in the country and shoot a match with no surprises.

Aside from rule 3.3 rule requirements are also mentioned in the Reaffiliation documents

[peterthefish]

.

Edited August 7, 2015 by peterthefish

[9x45]

GunBugBit, Open carry is illegal in CA, even if you have CCW permit. I really don't get the OP question at all either, its a shooting match, so why wouldn't you have your gun in the holster? That's no reason to be nervous. Bagging is bagging, no big deal.

[9x45]

Hi-Power Jack, shooters from Florida are known to be dis-agreeable, I thinks its the high humidity, and well, the bugs, and snakes, alligators, probably why they hold the US IPSC Nationals there.. But I do agree with alligators on golf courses, if golfers are stupid enough to retrieve a ball from the water, then alligators have the right to eat them! It's the natural way of open carry.

[GunBugBit]

No way. You can not be DQED for anything other than violating a Uspsa rule. You can be banned from a range or arrested I guess but not DQED.

Rule 3.3

What, then, is the "any other prohibited activity" portion of 10.3 all about?

[GunBugBit]

GunBugBit, Open carry is illegal in CA, even if you have CCW permit.

Thought so.

[Sarge]

No way. You can not be DQED for anything other than violating a Uspsa rule. You can be banned from a range or arrested I guess but not DQED.

Rule 3.3

What, then, is the "any other prohibited activity" portion of 10.3 all about?

It clearly says its anything other than a safety infraction. It's any activity covered in the rule book.

[kmca]

GunBugBit, Open carry is illegal in CA, even if you have CCW permit.

Thought so.

What's that got to do with this discussion?

[9x45]

kfc, you are asking the wrong shooter, I just clarified a point of CA law for GunBugBit. Perhaps, maybe, I don't know, he may think, possibly, maybe, how would I know? that walking around a range in CA with a holstered gun violates open carry in CA??? I mean you are in CA, what do you think? By the way, what range do you hang out at?

[kmca]

kfc, you are asking the wrong shooter, I just clarified a point of CA law for GunBugBit. Perhaps, maybe, I don't know, he may think, possibly, maybe, how would I know? that walking around a range in CA with a holstered gun violates open carry in CA??? I mean you are in CA, what do you think? By the way, what range do you hang out at?

Sorry, I was asking GunBugBit. I shoot at mostly in Fresno and Richmond, with occasional trips to Oakdale, Concord, Castro Valley, Winton and Sacramento.

[GunBugBit]

kfc, you are asking the wrong shooter, I just clarified a point of CA law for GunBugBit. Perhaps, maybe, I don't know, he may think, possibly, maybe, how would I know? that walking around a range in CA with a holstered gun violates open carry in CA??? I mean you are in CA, what do you think? By the way, what range do you hang out at?

Sorry, I was asking GunBugBit. I shoot at mostly in Fresno and Richmond, with occasional trips to Oakdale, Concord, Castro Valley, Winton and Sacramento.

Earlier posts talk about people being DQ'd for walking to their cars with their guns still in their holsters. At my range, no one will bat an eyelid, including at USPSA-sanctioned matches. That's because this is Arizona and we have been able to open-carry legally in most places for a long time. In CA, I don't think you can legally do that, even with an unloaded gun.

[GunBugBit]

No way. You can not be DQED for anything other than violating a Uspsa rule. You can be banned from a range or arrested I guess but not DQED.

Rule 3.3

What, then, is the "any other prohibited activity" portion of 10.3 all about?

It clearly says its anything other than a safety infraction. It's any activity covered in the rule book.

It refers to non-safety-related activities covered in the rule book? Where in the rule book does it say "any other prohibited activity" refers to activity prohibited by the rule book, versus activity prohibited by local law or something else external to the rule book?

I know some of this is silly. However, I would fully expect to be DQ'd for breaking a local gun law even though what I just did is not specifically covered by the rule book, other than I just engaged in some "other prohibited activity."