3 Gun Nation rule changes.

[Moltke]

Stlhead, What is the downside of adding a new division of people shooting regular guns commonly available everywhere with little or no mods? Because you don't like it? You don't even shoot 3 Gun Nation matches and I've seen you post that if you don't like it then dont shoot it. Other people, some new shooters, some existing shooters, many of the guys who show up to shoot with the gear they already own just for fun would have some competitive equity and it would take nothing away from your game.

[TonytheTiger]

Molke are you suggesting they bring out a fourth division instead of needlessly tweaking the existing three? Your right, I couldn't complain about that because it wouldn't effect me at all. But most of the guys that are just there for fun are not in it to win it and don't seem to care what they're shooting in as long as it's not open. Back in my kart racing days I don't remember anyone wanting a class for yard karts just because that's what people already had in the garden shed out back, and no one putsed around at the back of the pack just for fun. This is racing, get your head (and gear) in the game or expect to lose the race every time. It just seems strange to me that so many people want a division geared towards non-race guns.

Edited January 8, 2015 by TonytheTiger

[ziebart]

If a person wants a non race gun division set a price cap on those guns and make it enforceable by letting any competitor purchase a gun at or slightly above that price. Say the rifle has a cap of $1000 then anyone can purchase it for $1100. The competitor must sell it if the offer to buy is made. That should keep people from buying expensive stuff. It would also probably keep many people out as they don't want to rebuy gear if they have to sell it.

[Stlhead]

Moltke, I am not at all against it, it is just a waste of time. It would be a division with only new guys in it. Who wants to keep the training wheels on the bike after they figure out how to ride. There is nothing that keeps a new guy from showing up at his first match with a 14.5" AR rocking full mass and a vortex flash hider, stone stock shotgun, and whatever pistol he can scrounge. I shot my first Ironman with that same gear, and I can assure you when I returned the following year I brought different iron. Would you be happy shooting gear that you KNEW was Inferior for the purpose just so you could shoot with the new guys that don't know any better? I am a revolver shooter, I know about kicking my own ass, but even I use moon clips and a Randy gun. I just don't see a division like that taking off in three gun. But hey, this is just my opinion, and I have been wrong before, there are others on this board who are infalible, I bet one will be along shortly to cast aside all doubt.

[Sterling White]

Serious question. Would slide rackers, tac lights (or frame weights do that matter) be legal in Practical and Factory?

Never mind. Romero just responded on Facebook and said lights and rackets should be okay.

There's the problem. It's an ah ha rule set.

[Tuflehundon]

Seems to me a lot of people are over thinking this. Don't like Factory? You can still shoot a red dot in 3GN Production. USPSA, IPSC, etc, they all have divisions that have limited capacity. Some of the best shooters in the game are in those divisions. Single Stack, Production, Revolver. They are not newb divisions, they are just divisions. They are also very popular. No one complains about them. If you don't like USPSA Production, then shoot USPSA Limited, or Limited 10, or Open. Same goes here. Don't like 3GN Factory, shoot 3GN Production.

[bmiller]

If a person wants a non race gun division set a price cap on those guns and make it enforceable by letting any competitor purchase a gun at or slightly above that price. Say the rifle has a cap of $1000 then anyone can purchase it for $1100. The competitor must sell it if the offer to buy is made. That should keep people from buying expensive stuff. It would also probably keep many people out as they don't want to rebuy gear if they have to sell it.

They had a claimer division at the local dirt track. It was a nightmare! Also a few more regulations involved with an AR than a small block Chevy sale.

The unlimited rules are very intriguing , I wonder what effect a gyroscopic stabilization device would have on transition times?

Edited January 8, 2015 by bmiller

[MarkCO]

I loved racing claimer rules when I was still running in NASCAR. My sponsor charged me $1100 for my engines, the claim was $1500 plus $200 for my crew to R&R. When I won, my crew was HAPPY. Of 18 cars that ran the final one season, 11 had my engines in them.

I could see a spec for a lower, then a claim rule for a complete upper. That would avoid FFL and legality issues since those are all based on the lower. Do a $1000 claim rule for complete upper with sights, that would be a decent spec class and I would certainly run there.

[bmiller]

In the back woods of Pennsyltucky the claim was a flat $600 (to my best recollection ). When someone blew a motor, they went shopping.

Edited January 8, 2015 by bmiller

[Vlad]

I find it alien that we are talking about non-race divisions in the sport that is effectively the F1 of shooting, only with less Bernie Ecclestone. Unlike F1, we don't really care if you want to race a 1995 Celica with Jegg's stickers, but do we need a division for front wheel drive cars with rear downforce spoilers? Really?

[bmiller]

I find it alien that we are talking about non-race divisions in the sport that is effectively the F1 of shooting, only with less Bernie Ecclestone. Unlike F1, we don't really care if you want to race a 1995 Celica with Jegg's stickers, but do we need a division for front wheel drive cars with rear downforce spoilers? Really?

That is hilarious!

But on a serious note, it would be fine in times like now when parts are everywhere and cheap. But if another panic hits, it could put competitors in a bind.

Edited January 8, 2015 by bmiller

[TyinTX]

I loved racing claimer rules when I was still running in NASCAR. My sponsor charged me $1100 for my engines, the claim was $1500 plus $200 for my crew to R&R. When I won, my crew was HAPPY. Of 18 cars that ran the final one season, 11 had my engines in them.

I could see a spec for a lower, then a claim rule for a complete upper. That would avoid FFL and legality issues since those are all based on the lower. Do a $1000 claim rule for complete upper with sights, that would be a decent spec class and I would certainly run there.

I could run that rule, I love my upper but its replaceable. I agree that between a fairly basic $600 AR and say a $1300 AR built for competition there is a difference that even a newbie shooter like me can realize in performance. Having one of each its going to be interesting when I upgrade the el cheapos trigger. I'd think the average 3 gunner would be hard pressed to see a significant performance difference between my $978 upper(sights included) and a much more expensive upper. At the same time I think the better than average guy could run it and be happy with the results.

[ziebart]

bmiller,

I was not advocating for a claimer class, but throwing the idea out there if a person wanted to make a semi-spec class. I agree that the laws could make transfers a real hassle. Though exempting the stripped lower like Mark suggested would make it a lot easier. That still would not help the pistol or shotgun, but general rules could be defined easier for those. It would still not be an easy task.

If another panic hits it may make the basic upper worth a whole lot more than the claim rule. That could put a bunch of people out rifles so there would have to be some policing on that.

[Vlad]

If another panic hits it may make the basic upper worth a whole lot more than the claim rule. That could put a bunch of people out rifles so there would have to be some policing on that.

Nah, if you claim my upper for $1000 I claim yours for $1000, so abuse on the panic/shortage wouldn't be a terrible problem.

[ziebart]

Vlad, I did not even think about that, good point.

[Langenator]

bmiller,

I was not advocating for a claimer class, but throwing the idea out there if a person wanted to make a semi-spec class. I agree that the laws could make transfers a real hassle. Though exempting the stripped lower like Mark suggested would make it a lot easier. That still would not help the pistol or shotgun, but general rules could be defined easier for those. It would still not be an easy task.

For the pistol, could you not just say it must make the USPSA Production list (it is USPSA that has that list, right? I don't shoot USPSA or IDPA). For the shotgun, from my foxhole, the biggest thing would be limiting the tube length, probably to 8 rounds max. (Yes, I realize that most shotguns on the rack only hold 5.)

I will admit that the thing that prompted me to jump in to 3-gun was the fact that TX MG (LaRue was the sponsor that year) created their WWII Division - Garand, 1911 w/ 8 round mags, pump 12 gauge with a 6 round tube. I already had two out of the three, and a used 870 only cost me about $200. Holsters, mag holders, and shell caddies ended up costing way more than that shotgun.

[dogtired]

I assume supressors are still oversized comps?

[thermobollocks]

I could see a spec for a lower, then a claim rule for a complete upper. That would avoid FFL and legality issues since those are all based on the lower. Do a $1000 claim rule for complete upper with sights, that would be a decent spec class and I would certainly run there.

Value before or after you burn out the barrel at Ironman?

[Sterling White]

Being a veteran of Ironman I can say that ^^^^^^ is a little misleading. Over 10-years ago we used to warm up the barrels on some pretty crazy stages however since the match has been toned way down.

[LoneRanger]

James, I would like to thank you for the time you made for the video on the class that you will be shooting in. It did clear up a lot of questions. Now that being said, would you have sometime to put together a video to clear up the HM ? I've spent a lot already building

a rifle . I was going to us my Caspian 45 single stack. I still needed to buy 10 rd mags. But now I'm not sure if I should still go that route or go buy a double stack? I'm at a point now if I now for sure on the rules I could go either HM or HMO. Or what ever it will be called.

THANKS

[P.E. Kelley]

HM has been combined into ONE division for score. Meaning only one winner of that division.

However...two classes of guns will compete against each other with a "handicap" of sorts for the HM Optic group.

HM Optics (Heavy Optics) 20 round (MAX) 308 rifle any optics. Pistol 45 cal 10 rounds MAX. Auto shotgun 9 rounds MAX.

HM Iron (Heavy Sport) No limit 308 rifle 1x optic or iron. Pistol 45 cal. Limited to 141mm mags (whatever you can get in one and still fit the gauge) Shotgun PUMP ONLY. 9 rounds (at start)

In my thinking neither has a clear advantage. Rob feels he does in Optic. I feel I do in Iron.

[co-exprs]

HM has been combined into ONE division for score. Meaning only one winner of that division.

However...two classes of guns will compete against each other with a "handicap" of sorts for the HM Optic group.

HM Optics (Heavy Optics) 20 round (MAX) 308 rifle any optics. Pistol 45 cal 10 rounds MAX. Auto shotgun 9 rounds MAX.

HM Iron (Heavy Sport) No limit 308 rifle 1x optic or iron. Pistol 45 cal. Limited to 141mm mags (whatever you can get in one and still fit the gauge) Shotgun PUMP ONLY. 9 rounds (at start)

In my thinking neither has a clear advantage. Rob feels he does in Optic. I feel I do in Iron.

Not signed up for any 3GN matches, but I would crush it in iron as well.

[Sterling White]

HM has been combined into ONE division for score. Meaning only one winner of that division.

However...two classes of guns will compete against each other with a "handicap" of sorts for the HM Optic group.

HM Optics (Heavy Optics) 20 round (MAX) 308 rifle any optics. Pistol 45 cal 10 rounds MAX. Auto shotgun 9 rounds MAX.

HM Iron (Heavy Sport) No limit 308 rifle 1x optic or iron. Pistol 45 cal. Limited to 141mm mags (whatever you can get in one and still fit the gauge) Shotgun PUMP ONLY. 9 rounds (at start)

In my thinking neither has a clear advantage. Rob feels he does in Optic. I feel I do in Iron.

Not signed up for any 3GN matches, but I would crush it in iron as well.

Ditto...LOL

[LoneRanger]

Thanks for the input.

I'm sign up to shoot Heavy Sport at Tar Heals in April. I guess the pistol will decide if I stay or go to Heavy Optic.

One other thing I tried to get the rules off Tar Heals sight but I get a blank page. So what about the one hit on paper? Is that still in there?

[P.E. Kelley]

3GN rules for HM is one hit for rifle and pistol.