Stlhead Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 So are my factory SVI 9mm mags good in "factory" or not? 120 is retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hate to hear guns dumped muzzle down in a bucket or barrel without the external safety engaged is considered unsafe. I personally disagree, but that's not really what bothers me about this type of rule. Lets say I agree 100% with you and a gun in a barrel is perfectly safe no matter how I've left it. Okie, then what am I penalizing the shooter for? What is that 10second penalty for? It is either a "bad" thing or it isn't. having it both ways is basically saying "well we kinda sorta think is bad or that some people think is bad, but we don't think it is really bad so we are not going to DQ someone, we'll just give them a penalty". It doesn't make sense to me. If it is perfectly safe, then no penalty needs to be assigned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Hate to hear guns dumped muzzle down in a bucket or barrel without the external safety engaged is considered unsafe. I personally disagree, but that's not really what bothers me about this type of rule. Lets say I agree 100% with you and a gun in a barrel is perfectly safe no matter how I've left it. Okie, then what am I penalizing the shooter for? What is that 10second penalty for? It is either a "bad" thing or it isn't. having it both ways is basically saying "well we kinda sorta think is bad or that some people think is bad, but we don't think it is really bad so we are not going to DQ someone, we'll just give them a penalty". It doesn't make sense to me. If it is perfectly safe, then no penalty needs to be assigned. It's a procedural for not following the stated procedure on proper abandonment! "Bad" doesn't mean unsafe. A miss is not unsafe and you get penalized for that! Touching the rope will be a penalty. You did something NOT right! You missed, you left the safety off, you stepped over the fault line, you started with the wrong number of rounds...all penalizable...none unsafe! Breaking the 180, pointing the gun in an unsafe direction, dropping a loaded gun, sweeping yourself, cranking off a round while reloading are all unsafe gun handling! You have broken a major safety rule! You should be DQ'd! The safety is off on your gun during the entire stage WITH your finger in or near the trigger! That is not unsafe. How can a gun in a bucket be? Edited January 4, 2015 by Benelli Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 And...before you ask..."Why do we even ask you to put the safety on??" One - it is a feature of your gun that we ask you to put on when you start the stage...so...it is like requiring chamber flags or open chambers or a number of other things that help promote the perception of safety and get people into good habits! At some matches you can get DQ'd for no chamber flag. We penalize you for not following abandonment procedures. But more importantly, we ask you to put it on to improve safety when it comes time to CLEAR the gun. Though, again, we (RM3G) do not clear guns until after the shooter is done shooting (unless absolutely unavoidable) and by the shooter. The gun is pointed in a safe direction, the RO is there to be sure the finger is off the trigger until ready to show clear, it is treated as if it's loaded. So, it is still not unsafe with the safety off, but sometimes in the stress of the situation, you might grasp the trigger when retrieving it from the barrel and although, no one would be hurt if it goes off into the ground...there would be the time to change underwear and then you would be DQ'd for a unsafe gun handling! Best to avoid that!! Just my opinion! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 To me that seems like a very twisted path to take to get to the same spot. My gun has many features, but that one is the only one that gets to be used or has a procedural. If there is truly nothing unsafe then there should be nothing unsafe about clearing it later, the stress of clearing a gun should be no greater then when dumping it. To me, if there is no safety issue, penalizing someone 10 or 20 seconds for not flicking a button that doesn't have any safety implications and realistically no "gaming the stage" advantages seems pretty mean and I think it is a vestigial gut reaction to something we've convinced ourselves it is safe, but really kinda isn't. But, that's just my opinion, hopefully I'm wrong and we don't end up regretting going down the path of looser safety rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 For a minute I got really excited and thought that they would actually have an unlimited division. Then it turns out they just renamed Open. :/ What are some things you'd like to see in true Unlimited? Tripod mounted miniguns. Grenade launchers. Flamethrowers. Phased plasma lasers. I don't think fuel makes power factor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 To me that seems like a very twisted path to take to get to the same spot. My gun has many features, but that one is the only one that gets to be used or has a procedural. If there is truly nothing unsafe then there should be nothing unsafe about clearing it later, the stress of clearing a gun should be no greater then when dumping it. To me, if there is no safety issue, penalizing someone 10 or 20 seconds for not flicking a button that doesn't have any safety implications and realistically no "gaming the stage" advantages seems pretty mean and I think it is a vestigial gut reaction to something we've convinced ourselves it is safe, but really kinda isn't. But, that's just my opinion, hopefully I'm wrong and we don't end up regretting going down the path of looser safety rules. We've been using a penalty instead of a DQ since...2008, I think. We (RM3G) only have maybe 2 or 3 at most out of 300 a year that leave the safety off and receive the 30 second penalty. No guns going off in the buckets and barrels...knock on wood! But, we have buckets and barrels not those silly putt-putt things that people seem to love to build. (Carpet with 2"x4"'s around it like a little putt-putt course.) All of our buckets and barrels are on or in the ground! P.S. After running 110 yards, part of it with rifle slung...at over 6000 ft, you are a little amped up! Maybe on a 30 second stage you are not at all stressed, but most of our shooters are tuckered at least, exhausted at most and thinking about what they wish they had done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Will RM be transitioning to these rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Will RM be transitioning to these rules? Yeah sure, and the match 2015 match is tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langenator Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 For a minute I got really excited and thought that they would actually have an unlimited division. Then it turns out they just renamed Open. :/ What are some things you'd like to see in true Unlimited? Tripod mounted miniguns. Grenade launchers. Flamethrowers. Phased plasma lasers. I don't think fuel makes power factor But there's no question if you neutralized the paper targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) The drama about these rule changes has probably had the intended impact of their release.If you don't like them don't run them. Let your local match director/match supporters know what u think. I plan on asking the ones in my area to keep divisions the same and keep the rules they have been running. At the local match I help run, there will not be rule changes.I imagine major matches will each do whatever they feel will keep the registration up. I hope they each continue to have their own flavor.3 gunners have never been sheep. Not most of them anyway. Edited January 5, 2015 by Lead-Head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) I think I counted like 30+ matches this year between locals in my area and other majors. There are plenty of opportunities and variety. Edited January 5, 2015 by Lead-Head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Will RM be transitioning to these rules? Yeah sure, and the match 2015 match is tomorrow. We're trying to figure out the new names for our divisions right now! We are taking these under advisement: "Anything Goes", "Regular $h!T", "Regular $h!T for people with good eyes", "Macho Crap" and "Macho Crap for good eyes" "Super expensive", "expensive" and "supposedly cheaper but really not" and "somewhat cheaper guns, but more expensive ammo" and "old farts with good eyes" I jest! We like our 4 pages of rules very much! Any changes that happen will always be little tweaks, like allowing 1X in He-Man Iron which we made provisional last year! I know that I should embrace change, but I'm just not good at it! Stlhead - will you be getting your butt back down to us - even with our antiquated rule set??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I dont think those mods will put you in unlimited. Its poorly written for sure but they aren't stupid enough to make 90% of the equipment currently being used illegal.I kind of figured as much, however, ever since I got bumped to Open in a USPSA match while shooting Production with a G-34 that had a plastic grip plug in it,because the plug changed the profile of the factory configuration .I try to read these equipment divisions a little more careful now.Was that recent? There was an explicit ruling by DNROI that those plastic grip plugs were now legal in Production.Edit: here is the official ruling. You were moved to Open incorrectly. http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=34 If the plug is flush with the grip frame it is ok. Mine slightly protruded. It was Ga State a couple of years ago. I argued that it was plastic and not weighted, but they pulled Amindon (sp) notebook of rulings and showed me where he ruled it changed the shape of the gun. I think it is also pointed out in the appendix of the rule book now as well. Because I did not read the rules on equipment carefully , I thought they were just outlawing Seattle Slug Plugs. Hard lesson after paying bucks for State Match Fee, Travel, Hotels. etc. I just do not want to show up a big 3G after big match fee, travel expenses, etc , and find out I did not understand the rules on my equipment division. This is another reason why even small local club matches should be run in accordance with the rules and point things out like this if in violation. I had been shooting that G34 for 14 months in that configuration ,at least shooting two club level matches per month and was never called out on it until I got to the state match. Thanks for providing the link on NROI ruling . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 My response to the rules....Well, good luck with that. All these overly specific division requirements are dumb unless someone is going to do a gear inspection every match. Calling open unlimited then limiting it is extra stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oskino Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I laughed when I read this 7.1UNLIMITED DIVISION:formally "Open" 7.1.1UNLIMITED PISTOL 7.1.1.1No limitations on accessories. 7.1.1.2Magazine length may not exceed 171.25 millimeters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 What is in a name? Would a rose by any other name not smell as sweet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 As for the safety in a barrel benelli chick is a glock shooter any less likely to set one off picking up their glock than a 1911 shooter. I'm one that would push to have a functional grip safety count on a 1911/2011 as functional safety since it does on an Xd and on a glock there really is no safety other than a trigger safety which if pulled goes off (it's also not unheard of for that to not even work when pretravel is removed by a DIY smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) As for the safety in a barrel benelli chick is a glock shooter any less likely to set one off picking up their glock than a 1911 shooter. I'm one that would push to have a functional grip safety count on a 1911/2011 as functional safety since it does on an Xd and on a glock there really is no safety other than a trigger safety which if pulled goes off (it's also not unheard of for that to not even work when pretravel is removed by a DIY smith Nope! I didn't say that either was unsafe. I just said that's why we say you need to put it on if it exists! Neither is unsafe and taking out of the bucket isn't unsafe. Just follow the safety rules and all will be fine. I have seen other matches have RO's clearing guns that have truly been unsafe. Pulled a shotgun out of a dump barrel sweeping the shooter and RO on the other side of the plywood wall. I've seen them drop guns before emptying them...having the external safety set on - which does exist on shotguns and rifle and about half the pistols is just another layer of safety if someone does something stupid. Like I said, more than making the gun more safe, just limits possible mistakes on clearing that might make scary noises. Doesn't eliminate...a person can still take the safety off before racking the pistol and pull the trigger by mistake. Use all 4 safety rules...make sure it is pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger out of the trigger until you are ready to shoot, treat all guns as if they're loaded, and know your target and what's behind it. Not saying people are more or less likely to set one off. Put the safety on, AND if you are smacked while picking up your gun by a raging bear, you are less likely to pull the trigger. That's all! You've got it, use it! But it's NOT unsafe abandoned by itself in a bucket...with the external safety off or on... Edited January 5, 2015 by Benelli Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Denise your in danger of being range lawyered to death! Easily my least favorite aspect of the shooting sports.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Denise your in danger of being range lawyered to death! Easily my least favorite aspect of the shooting sports.... It keeps things interesting!!! What doesn't kill me, makes me and my resolve stronger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 So, I've been getting ready to do HM for 2015, or now it's Heavy Sport. The pistol is the old heavy metal reliable .45 calibre. However, now it's double stack and base padded at 141mm. So we're doing 17 rounds of .45 in the Heavy Sport pistol. That's verrrrrry interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFH Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I believe the changes in division names is purely for a commercial reason. Maybe there is some political correctness involved, but 3GN is a brand. By coming up with different division names, they and their followers are trying to change the terms used in 3-gun to morph the language of the sport into one aligned with their branding scheme. One should expect Tarheel 3-gun to be taking a lead in this. Taking a look at way liberals have co-opted words and phrases over the last 100 or so years, demonstrates how effective this practice can be. I agree that the rule changes, while 3GN is entitled to do what they want, are really a mess. My favorite is the touching the rope penalty. How many shooters can feel a rope touching their pants leg??? If you are too lazy to use wooden fault lines, come up with an alternative that doesn't involve what will surely become a subjective and somewhat unenforceable rule. It seems the ruleset is not at the same web address, so maybe it was taken down for further evaluation!! BTW EkuJustice, we have been recognizing functional grip safeties at Blue Ridge for a few years, and Denise's reasons for the penalties are very similar to mine. Go Denise! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I read them. Some changes made from the first set I read. Different terminology than USPSA, to differentiate 3 GN. No problem. Factory sounds cool, especially for club matches. I'll shoot Practical most of the time, likely most will. I think no drama here. I don't think so messy. The rope thing I get. Having set up 3 club matches in the last 3 months-there's nothing lazy about it. If we want to get a match in, set it up and take it down fast, rope is a great boundary. People have been pushing it too far, so you learn not to touch it. There are club, regional, and pro level events. All the big matches are big matches-there are not club level RM or Blue Ridge or IronMan. I like this set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveG Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SJkxE6C_Eg&sns=em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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