TyinTX Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SJkxE6C_Eg&sns=em I would be shooting Factory division. Not much factory about it. I would need to plug one shell in my 9 round tube, only run 30s on my rifle. I thought just run factory 19 round magazines and then I watched the video and reread the rules and got confused. I'm still seeing 140s are forbidden in the ruleset for Factory. 7.3.1.4 Magazines used must be of factory configuration and length. Use of after market base pads or extensions is strictly forbidden. I'm ok with that, much rather run factory mags and load them up rather than download any to 15. 30 instead of 40 isn't a huge deal I just like the 40s and don't think $18 vs $13 round mags is a barrier to entry. Factory looks more like a name that kind of like Unlimited doesn't make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkface Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Looks like they put up another version. Or am I looking at a different set of rules? http://tarheel3gun.com/t3gn/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/3-Gun-Nation-REGIONAL-SERIES-RULES-2015-FINAL-FORMAT-v4.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 [improper gounding is] a procedural for not following the stated procedure on proper abandonment! "Bad" doesn't mean unsafe. [Emphasis added.] Man, I really like it when folks post good, solid, reasonable, common sense like this. I haven't yet read through this new hodge-podge of rules, though I expect I will have to as I am probably signed up for matches using them, but one thing I got right away—they got "grounding" and "abandoned" bass-ackwards. Abandoned should mean you can't go back for it, and grounded should mean just (temporarily) placed somewhere safe out of hand...except that they called it exactly the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langenator Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 [improper gounding is] a procedural for not following the stated procedure on proper abandonment! "Bad" doesn't mean unsafe. [Emphasis added.] Man, I really like it when folks post good, solid, reasonable, common sense like this. I haven't yet read through this new hodge-podge of rules, though I expect I will have to as I am probably signed up for matches using them, but one thing I got right away—they got "grounding" and "abandoned" bass-ackwards. Abandoned should mean you can't go back for it, and grounded should mean just (temporarily) placed somewhere safe out of hand...except that they called it exactly the opposite. I would definitely agree with that. Reversing those two terms would dramatically reduce confusion, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langenator Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Looks like they put up another version. Or am I looking at a different set of rules? http://tarheel3gun.com/t3gn/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/3-Gun-Nation-REGIONAL-SERIES-RULES-2015-FINAL-FORMAT-v4.pdf Getting 404 Not found on that URL. Found here: http://tarheel3gun.com/t3gn/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/3-Gun-Nation-REGIONAL-SERIES-RULES-2015-FINAL-FORMAT-v4.pdf Edited January 5, 2015 by Langenator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) I really wish 3GN would have emailed it's members the new rules with an explanation for the big changes. It would have saved a lot of reading. Based on my understanding of the Factory Division it severely missed the mark. Limiting magazine capacity doesn't make it a Production type division. It makes it an Un-American division. If they want a newb division you gotta remove compensators, low mass bcg's adjustable gas blocks and all the go fast race parts that veteran 3-gunners are going to use to gain an advantage. Basically you need to limit the division to M4 style rifles which make up ~80% of AR's sold. Same goes for shotgun. 5 round max and no lightened bolts, load port mods etc. Basically an off the shelf 1100, M3000, 870, M2 etc. The heavy divisions are bass akwards. After reading Pat's post as to why it kinda makes sense but now we have two new divisions both of which Im not excited about shooting. Heavy Optics has been moving towards Heavy rifle in Tac Optics. Basically TO with a .308 with the use of semi auto shotguns with no mag cap limits and 9mm pistols with no mag cap limits and even the .308 without mag cap limits. Now it is back to a .45 max ten rounds, semi auto shotgun, and .308 with limit mag capacity. Then you have Heavy Sport formerly Heavy Irons which was the purist division with ten rounds of .45, pump 12 gauge, and 20 rounds of .308. Now it has no mags limits and you can use a semi auto shotgun. I was hoping having a centralized organization such as 3GN would start to solidify the divisions and the rules. But the changes to Tac Irons and Heavy are so far out in left field that there is no way the outlaw matches are going to come on board. We now have three more divisions to learn. The new shooters have like 15 different possible division rules sets depending on the matches that they shoot. Hopefully in the future 3GN creates a rule committee and gets input from a bunch of the shooters. USPSA definitely has a much better way of rolling out new rules. Edited January 5, 2015 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyinTX Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 So they did update the rules for Factory. 7.3.1.4 Magazines shall not be loaded with more than fifteen (15) rounds after the start signal. However a (15+1) magazine is legal to charge the chamber at the make ready command. 7.3.1.5 Magazines used shall not exceed 171.25 mm OAL (overall length) for single stacks and shall not exceed 141.25 mm OAL for staggered magazines. Downloading magazines to fifteen (15) rounds is allowed. The divisions are meant to group like kinds of equipment, downloading magazines to force ammo capacity equality between platforms misses the mark for me. Every gun had pros and cons, competitors should make the choice and live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Wow, we are starting the new year off with an unprecedented occurrence! Jesse and I completely agree....now you all know why it has been such a cold winter!!! Edited January 5, 2015 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) A 15 round limit or 120mm mag length limit would not be my choice for the replacement division for limited, but the 15 round clarification at least does not mean I have to get new mags if I ever did have to shoot under these rules. I do not think I have ever been presented with a valid reason for a pistol change in limited, but limited is gone now, long live comrade factory. Now that Kurt and Jesse will be taking long walks on the beach again I can't wait to see what other changes the new year has in store for us. Edited January 5, 2015 by Stlhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Wow, we are starting the new year off with an unprecedented occurrence! Jesse and I completely agree....now you all know why it has been such a cold winter!!! It's a christmas miracle! I completely agree. I think that factory division is a great idea but the execution here leaves much to be desired. I suspect that has something to do with the fact that most Pro shooters who would be competing in this division already shoot high dollar 2011 guns for blocks that have been extensively. Why don't we have factory configuration actually mean factory configuration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleaay78 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Based on my understanding of the Factory Division it severely missed the mark. Limiting magazine capacity doesn't make it a Production type division. It makes it an Un-American division. If they want a newb division you gotta remove compensators, low mass bcg's adjustable gas blocks and all the go fast race parts that veteran 3-gunners are going to use to gain an advantage. Basically you need to limit the division to M4 style rifles which make up ~80% of AR's sold. Same goes for shotgun. 5 round max and no lightened bolts, load port mods etc. Basically an off the shelf 1100, M3000, 870, M2 etc. Nailed it. The name 'factory' is very misleading. If anything, it should be called 'factory mag'... Something that sticks out in my mind about the SW regional last year was the random shotgun tube audits, which were not very well received or appreciated by most shooters I spoke with. If cheating was so common that tube audits were deemed necessary, these new divisions are going to magnify that significantly. If the honor system isn't working already with just the 9 round capacity rule, active enforcement of these new division rules is probably going to become a major part of 3gn matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Why don't we have factory configuration actually mean factory configuration? I'm guessing because enforcing that would suck for everyone involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Why don't we have factory configuration actually mean factory configuration? I'm guessing because enforcing that would suck for everyone involved. It's a name. For 3GN. Got a better one? Why don't we have Tactical really mean Tactical in USPSA? Why is Heavy Metal called that in USPSA? You could call it Sniper Division. or BOP Guard Division. Heavy Metal is Black Sabbath. I am amazed that everybody's Speedo got so twisted. Who cares if the "outlaw matches come on board?" They have their own rules and usually sell out. Edited January 5, 2015 by Jadeslade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Why don't we have factory configuration actually mean factory configuration? I'm guessing because enforcing that would suck for everyone involved. It's a name. For 3GN. Got a better one? Why don't we have Tactical really mean Tactical in USPSA? Why is Heavy Metal called that in USPSA? You could call it Sniper Division. or BOP Guard Division. Heavy Metal is Black Sabbath. I am amazed that everybody's Speedo got so twisted. Who cares if the "outlaw matches come on board?" They have their own rules and usually sell out. What? What does have to do with anything? I couldn't care less what you call a division, someone will make a chart to explain it all, what I was saying was that enforcing "factory" configuration will be a royal pain in the ass. Are you going to tear down gun each and check for aftermarket triggers? Are you going to have a cheat sheet with what the factory angles are on random factory shotgun loading ports to make sure no one filed off the corners a bit? That is what I meant. Edited January 5, 2015 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg308 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 +1 on all accounts. All the other sports have rules committees and procedures in place to prevent this angst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 If you don't shoot 3GN Matches, why do you care? If you do, do you not trust these guys to get it right? I do. 3GN is moving way faster than anybody else, no time like the present. Waiting for a bunch of shooters to get rules together is like herding cats. Not gonna happen. I must have missed the part that said all matches in the US are to be run by these 3GN rules. Vlad, I am not sure you understand what Factory is, that's what I meant by its just a name. You can still have all the mods you want on your rifle, irons and/or 1x dot ,just mags limited to 30, all the mods you want on your shotgun, just limited to 8 in tube, and pistol mags loaded to 15. A lot of this just sounds like "3GN" you suck. Really it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) So my Hiperfire 24c is illegal , but my Gieselle is legal in factory? I am not a fan of downloading mags, but I like your interpretation the best Mr. Jadeslade. Straight forward no interpretation needed. Edited January 5, 2015 by bmiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) If you don't shoot 3GN Matches, why do you care? If you do, do you not trust these guys to get it right? I do. 3GN is moving way faster than anybody else, no time like the present. Waiting for a bunch of shooters to get rules together is like herding cats. Not gonna happen. I must have missed the part that said all matches in the US are to be run by these 3GN rules. Vlad, I am not sure you understand what Factory is, that's what I meant by its just a name. You can still have all the mods you want on your rifle, irons and/or 1x dot ,just mags limited to 30, all the mods you want on your shotgun, just limited to 8 in tube, and pistol mags loaded to 15. A lot of this just sounds like "3GN" you suck. Really it does. I really have no idea what you are talking about and how that relates to my comment that you quotes which was a reply to someone else and you seem to have misunderstood. But whatever, carry on being angry about whatever has upset you, I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. Edited January 5, 2015 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobS761 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 JMO, if 3GN wants to attract the new and uninitiated shooter, there should be a "store bought" division. Like Jesse said, 80% of rifles sold are M4 type carbines. Most of my friends that want to try 3 gun only have a stock store bought carbine, some sort of hunting shotgun, and a plastic pistol. Pretty sure the policeman from Alaska has a division similar to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 there should be a "store bought" division. There are a lot of store bought 3gun rifles now, complete with match triggers, floaty handguards and the like. Define store bought for a lego rifle made in hundreds of variations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 JMO, if 3GN wants to attract the new and uninitiated shooter, there should be a "store bought" division. Like Jesse said, 80% of rifles sold are M4 type carbines. Most of my friends that want to try 3 gun only have a stock store bought carbine, some sort of hunting shotgun, and a plastic pistol. Pretty sure the policeman from Alaska has a division similar to this. +1 the trick is to capture the spirit of run what you brung. From what I read on the original document 3GN tried but missed the mark a bit. IMHO I see where they are going with all this, but reading it makes my head hurt. Hopefully they sort it out before the SW regional in February because what I read was pretty confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyinTX Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 JMO, if 3GN wants to attract the new and uninitiated shooter, there should be a "store bought" division. Like Jesse said, 80% of rifles sold are M4 type carbines. Most of my friends that want to try 3 gun only have a stock store bought carbine, some sort of hunting shotgun, and a plastic pistol. Pretty sure the policeman from Alaska has a division similar to this. +1 the trick is to capture the spirit of run what you brung. From what I read on the original document 3GN tried but missed the mark a bit. IMHO I see where they are going with all this, but reading it makes my head hurt. Hopefully they sort it out before the SW regional in February because what I read was pretty confusing. I was the new shooter who wanted to shoot 3 gun not long ago. I ran and still run what I had. Its been a blast, I run limited because I enjoy it. First match I showed up with 40 round rifle mags, a 9+1 shotgun, and bone stock pistol. It was a blast and I got my butt kicked by experience. Now I have upgraded a little but long term I think creating a division for "new" shooters doesn't work, it will be gamed. Create divisions for of the way people like to shoot, don't create a division for every single piece of gear to have a place. Some guns may never be optimal or competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I have always felt a nerf gun division was way overdue. Something even they newest of shooters can feel comfortable with. Heck even convicted felons could participate without breaking the terms of their parole by handling real firearms. All equipment is available at Target. Of coarse then some gamer will show up with the belt-fed Nerf chain gun and piss everyone off. And calibrating steel would be a bitch. No division is perfect I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 +1 on all accounts. All the other sports have rules committees and procedures in place to prevent this angst. Yeah, 3GN needs some tiger teams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 If you don't shoot 3GN Matches, why do you care? If you do, do you not trust these guys to get it right? I do. 3GN is moving way faster than anybody else, no time like the present. Waiting for a bunch of shooters to get rules together is like herding cats. Not gonna happen. I must have missed the part that said all matches in the US are to be run by these 3GN rules. Vlad, I am not sure you understand what Factory is, that's what I meant by its just a name. You can still have all the mods you want on your rifle, irons and/or 1x dot ,just mags limited to 30, all the mods you want on your shotgun, just limited to 8 in tube, and pistol mags loaded to 15. A lot of this just sounds like "3GN" you suck. Really it does. I really have no idea what you are talking about and how that relates to my comment that you quotes which was a reply to someone else and you seem to have misunderstood.But whatever, carry on being angry about whatever has upset you, I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. im not anything. What are you talking about? You made up a hypothetical that doesn't exist. I was just explaining Factory to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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