3 Gun Nation rule changes.

[Sterling White]

I really wish 3GN would have emailed it's members the new rules with an explanation for the big changes. It would have saved a lot of reading.

Based on my understanding of the Factory Division it severely missed the mark. Limiting magazine capacity doesn't make it a Production type division. It makes it an Un-American division.

Jesse, don't lock the dog in the closet or go kick him because I'm chiming in on your post but I have to agree with you.....at least this one time!

Edited January 7, 2015 by Sterling White

[Bryan 45]

I really wish 3GN would have emailed it's members the new rules with an explanation for the big changes. It would have saved a lot of reading.

Based on my understanding of the Factory Division it severely missed the mark. Limiting magazine capacity doesn't make it a Production type division. It makes it an Un-American division.

Jesse, don't lock the dog in the closet or go kick him because I'm chiming in on your post but I have to agree with you.....at least this one time!

I have to wonder if all the mandatory reloading in their classifiers was just setting up everyone for these capacity limits.

[CJW]

Actually, I don't shoot 3GN matches, but I expect that when clubs that do shoot 3GN Club/Regional matches offer major matches (whether they are called 3GN regionals or not) they are going to default to 3GN club rules. So, I expect these rules are going to follow me whether I want them to or not…

I know everyone rags on USPSA, but their new 3gun rules are pretty darn good. Convince your club to use them

I have nothing against the current USPSA multigun rules. Also, it's not my club. The two places I shoot the most, they use FNH 3-Gun rules. If I travel a little farther, I am in Tarheel 3-Gun territory, which means I am a lot more likely to see 3GN rules there, though.

[CJW]

The problem with saying things like "factory configuration" [...] is that these phrases are already commonly in use, known by all, and well defined by existing action shooting sports.

Yeah, but I don't think 3GN is collecting production metrics from manufacturers to create an approved factory list. I would actually have to say I do not personally know one 3-Gunner who shoots a factory condition rifle, and I know very darn few who even shoot an upper/lower/barrel that shipped together from a manufacturer, either.

The factory configuration means no one off firearms. Has to be a commercially available gun. With companies having custom gunsmiths at the factory (Smith & Wesson, etc), what isn't a factory configuration.

I was commenting on Moltke's statement that "factory" has well established meaning. It does, and that meaning is manufacturer certification to the sanctioning body that a certain number of units were sold (either annually or in total), and furthermore that in those "factory" equipment divisions there are very few allowed modifications.

That being the case, carrying those definitions over to 3-Gun would mean that (1) 3GN would need to become such a sanctioning body to receive those verifications, and (2) every Frankenrifle out there (which is most competition ARs that I have seen) would be illegal in a factory division.

If they want the word "factory" to mean something other than "mass-sold and shot as-is", then the word needs to be defined. If not, then one may well have a rifle deemed "factory" at one 3GN rules match and disallowed as "factory" at another 3GN rules match.

[alma]

The problem with saying things like "factory configuration" [...] is that these phrases are already commonly in use, known by all, and well defined by existing action shooting sports.

Yeah, but I don't think 3GN is collecting production metrics from manufacturers to create an approved factory list. I would actually have to say I do not personally know one 3-Gunner who shoots a factory condition rifle, and I know very darn few who even shoot an upper/lower/barrel that shipped together from a manufacturer, either.

The factory configuration means no one off firearms. Has to be a commercially available gun. With companies having custom gunsmiths at the factory (Smith & Wesson, etc), what isn't a factory configuration.

I was commenting on Moltke's statement that "factory" has well established meaning. It does, and that meaning is manufacturer certification to the sanctioning body that a certain number of units were sold (either annually or in total), and furthermore that in those "factory" equipment divisions there are very few allowed modifications.

That being the case, carrying those definitions over to 3-Gun would mean that (1) 3GN would need to become such a sanctioning body to receive those verifications, and (2) every Frankenrifle out there (which is most competition ARs that I have seen) would be illegal in a factory division.

If they want the word "factory" to mean something other than "mass-sold and shot as-is", then the word needs to be defined. If not, then one may well have a rifle deemed "factory" at one 3GN rules match and disallowed as "factory" at another 3GN rules match.

A practical (sorry) Factory division wouldn't need to be complicated to define or enforce.

For example for pistol it could be:

Striker fired or DA first shot

No comps, Porting or optics.

No external or add on mag wells.

No externally added weight or tac lights

No slide cuts

Internal modifications are okay

Trigger work and aftermarket triggers are okay as long as all safeties still function.

Grip tape, stippling, glue and grit is okay.

Done

[kurtm]

No slide cuts?? there goes the Glock 34/35 and the 24 and 17L....getting harder to define isn't it?

Edited January 7, 2015 by kurtm

[bmiller]

The problem with saying things like "factory configuration" [...] is that these phrases are already commonly in use, known by all, and well defined by existing action shooting sports.

Yeah, but I don't think 3GN is collecting production metrics from manufacturers to create an approved factory list. I would actually have to say I do not personally know one 3-Gunner who shoots a factory condition rifle, and I know very darn few who even shoot an upper/lower/barrel that shipped together from a manufacturer, either.

The factory configuration means no one off firearms. Has to be a commercially available gun. With companies having custom gunsmiths at the factory (Smith & Wesson, etc), what isn't a factory configuration.

I was commenting on Moltke's statement that "factory" has well established meaning. It does, and that meaning is manufacturer certification to the sanctioning body that a certain number of units were sold (either annually or in total), and furthermore that in those "factory" equipment divisions there are very few allowed modifications.

That being the case, carrying those definitions over to 3-Gun would mean that (1) 3GN would need to become such a sanctioning body to receive those verifications, and (2) every Frankenrifle out there (which is most competition ARs that I have seen) would be illegal in a factory division.

If they want the word "factory" to mean something other than "mass-sold and shot as-is", then the word needs to be defined. If not, then one may well have a rifle deemed "factory" at one 3GN rules match and disallowed as "factory" at another 3GN rules match.

A practical (sorry) Factory division wouldn't need to be complicated to define or enforce.

For example for pistol it could be:

Striker fired or DA first shot

No comps, Porting or optics.

No external or add on mag wells.

No externally added weight or tac lights

No slide cuts

Internal modifications are okay

Trigger work and aftermarket triggers are okay as long as all safeties still function.

Grip tape, stippling, glue and grit is okay.

Done

Do you shoot limited now?

[CJW]

A practical (sorry) Factory division wouldn't need to be complicated to define or enforce.

I am afraid I must respectfully disagree. To name names, the current "best practices" examples of a Factory type division are IDPA Stock Service Pistol (SSP) and USPSA Production. Both have a requirement for production levels, both require the specifically allowed pistols to show up in a sanctioned list, and both have a comprehensive list of allowed modifications (as well as incomplete lists of disallowed modifications). Both have been around for years. And yet, the number or rules tweaks or clarification needed to keep track of what is and what is not allowed keeps growing, and there are still competitor rants over the exact application of those equipment rules.

I am not saying a factory division is impossible. I am just saying it is not easy, especially with regard to as modular a platform as an AR-15 style rifle. If on the other hand, you simply want an entry level division that precludes a number of common "competition" mods, that's great, but just don't call it "factory".

By the way, when I wrote the rules for my own club's multigun matches, all I said about pistols in "Tactical" division is that they have to be legal in any IDPA or USPSA pistol division other than USPSA Open. (Yes, I could just say "USPSA Limited," but we have a lot of IDPA shooters who have no clue what that means, and who only know that they have an "ESP" legal pistol.) If IDPA seriously busts out Production Optics, er, Combat Optic Pistol, I may have to revise that wording.

[bmiller]

I would like to know why most people point to tac-irons as the division for entry level shooters? A novice shooter has a better chance at hitting a 8" plate at 300 with a 1x4 scope than iron sights. As far as equipment cost, a Burris tac-30 would be similar in price to a prismatic , and damn cheaper than most aimpoints. Why is there not a discussion on turning tac-ops into production 3-gun? Most of the newly minted AR owners I know bought a Nikon 223 scope to mount on their Bushmaster optics ready carbine. Ok , I need to go put on my fire suit!

[Lead-Head]

Those are excellent points.

Demands some on the match. Some are more of a headache with irons than others.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Lead-Head

[MarkCO]

I put my son into Tac-Irons because he wants to beat "Jamie" some day.

Honestly, the smaller division with the less talent after the first handful of shooters does do something to help build and instill confidence. Also, the top Tac-Irons shooters do a lot to include everyone in their division in terms of education and support.

[Jim Norman]

There is really only ONE way to have a "Factory Division" any where. You do an IROC division. Pick a manufacturer, Pick a model from them, have them supply a sufficient quantity of units to use in the match, same for ammo. Now, you could do this for a National Championship where there were a very limited number of shooters that would be given their equipment only at the venue and under supervision be allowed a couple days to sight in and familiarize after which the match is on.

Any thing else in the world we live in in 3Gun is going to be hell to administrate. I have a JP, sort of. It has a Hyper Fire trigger, a Vortex Scope a Larue Mount, a Veltor stock and a bunch of little bits stuck on hear and there, an Ergo grip, a replacement Comp. Am I now in Open? I suppose. How about I put the JP stock and trigger back> The comp is available from JP, not sure about the scope and mount? Would they too have to be 'factory' only usable if the manufacturer sold them with the gun? What about my MOA Stoeger? Since Tom did the work and Tom is a 'manufacturer, is this a 'Factory Gun'?

How about instead we define what is allowed and isn't, the rifle has to be an A2 with a carry handle and a 20" barrel, iron sights, no 'target sights. the trigger cannot be adjustable. Pistol use USPSA Production or Single Stack rules, Shotgun? 4 rounds in the tube (5? becasue Stoeger has 5?) No porting or other modifications such as extended safeties and bolts?

I think we'd kill this off rather quickly.

Tac Optics, No Bi-Pod, 30 rounds loaded, one optic, one back-up iron, HG 15 rounds, no optic, no ports, SG, tubes only, limit to 8 rounds?, milling the loading port OK becasue we don't want to piss off everyone that has already done this and make expensive paperweights. 24" barrel minimum?

Just a few random thoughts after reading bits and pieces of this thread.

[bmiller]

Or we could go with if it ain't broke don't fix it:)

[Lead-Head]

This

[alma]

No slide cuts?? there goes the Glock 34/35 and the 24 and 17L....getting harder to define isn't it?

Okay, no aftermarket slide cuts.

I understand this would not fly with 3GN since it seems like 90% of the regulars are either shooting a 2011 or a Zev/TTI/Salient Glock that bares almost no resemblance to a factory Glock.

[alma]

Serious question. Would slide rackers, tac lights (or frame weights do that matter) be legal in Practical and Factory?

[alma]

Serious question. Would slide rackers, tac lights (or frame weights do that matter) be legal in Practical and Factory?

Never mind. Romero just responded on Facebook and said lights and rackets should be okay.

[Moltke]

I would like to know why most people point to tac-irons as the division for entry level shooters? A novice shooter has a better chance at hitting a 8" plate at 300 with a 1x4 scope than iron sights. As far as equipment cost, a Burris tac-30 would be similar in price to a prismatic , and damn cheaper than most aimpoints. Why is there not a discussion on turning tac-ops into production 3-gun? Most of the newly minted AR owners I know bought a Nikon 223 scope to mount on their Bushmaster optics ready carbine. Ok , I need to go put on my fire suit!

Many figure they'll start in Tac-Irons because they're not competition shooters and they're encouraged to "show up with what you've got". Considering nowadays if you own an AR15 then you probably also own a red dot sight for that AR15 (Aimpoint of EOTech) and you easily fit in Tac-Irons division...

Personally, I would like to see a division where a milspec 16" carbine with a red dot sight, an 8+1 pump shotgun, and Glock 19 are considered "competitive". The point being that they would all LOOK like off the shelf guns because they would all BE off the shelf guns - internal modifications only, no super high capacity magazines, or fancy shit.

But instead the Factory division is just "Tac-Irons Lite" with downloaded capacities. Same great taste but less calories? Thanks, but no thanks. If I'm going to drop all the money to have a long barreled, light trigger, accurized pistol, shotgun, & rifle with high capacity magazines, custom work, and the other cool gear - then by God I'm going to load to full and wreak havoc.

I have switched between Irons and Optics divisions regularly for the past couple years and I look forward to the day when a Production / Duty / Factory or Milspec division exists because it would bring some of the gear used in the sport back to things that are useable in real life application, but at this point I'm just going to shoot Tac-Ops because I'm addicted to the game.

[Stlhead]

I could give two shits about real life applications or what gear tactical Timmy already has. I welcome new shooters and do everything I can to accommodate them but this is a game, you don't change the rules of a game so that the new players have more fun, the new players need to learn how to play the game the way everyone else does. If it makes new shooters feel good to shoot in a division with fewer people so they are higher up in the standings numerically then good for them, but I would like to think that even kids are smart enough to understand what the percentage at the far right of the final score sheet means. It does not matter if a new shooter is rocking a Glock or a SVI, if they can't shoot they will not have such a good time, no amount of division jerymandering will save a new shooter from an ass whipping.

It still Comes down to the big three, Open, Scope tac, and Limited. You can change the names and tweak the equipment rules, but those that shoot 1x will most likely keep shooting 1x, and the open bitches will always shoot open cause they can't load their shotguns, and everyone else will be in scope tac cause thats whats left. (Note that if you are offended by the open jab I am terribly sorry and will agree to punish my liver tonight to make up for it) Rules will always undergo a bit of tweaking and changing, if people like them they stick around and become widely accepted, if people do not like them they disappear into the murky history of our sport. I almost want to shoot a 3GN match just so that I would have some standing to bitch about these rules, but it looks like there are plenty of others willing to pick up torches and pitchforks.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Stlhead

[Stlhead]

Also, Facebook is for sharing pictures of your cat, any information found there is not only suspect but to be dismissed without consideration of any kind.

[P.E. Kelley]

I could give two shits about real life applications or what gear tactical Timmy already has. I welcome new shooters and do everything I can to accommodate them but this is a game, you don't change the rules of a game so that the new players have more fun, the new players need to learn how to play the game the way everyone else does. If it makes new shooters feel good to shoot in a division with fewer people so they are higher up in the standings numerically then good for them, but I would like to think that even kids are smart enough to understand what the percentage at the far right of the final score sheet means. It does not matter if a new shooter is rocking a Glock or a SVI, if they can't shoot they will not have such a good time, no amount of division jerymandering will save a new shooter from an ass whipping.

It still Comes down to the big three, Open, Scope tac, and Limited. You can change the names and tweak the equipment rules, but those that shoot 1x will most likely keep shooting 1x, and the open bitches will always shoot open cause they can't load their shotguns, and everyone else will be in scope tac cause thats whats left. (Note that if you are offended by the open jab I am terribly sorry and will agree to punish my liver tonight to make up for it) Rules will always undergo a bit of tweaking and changing, if people like them they stick around and become widely accepted, if people do not like them they disappear into the murky history of our sport. I almost want to shoot a 3GN match just so that I would have some standing to bitch about these rules, but it looks like there are plenty of others willing to pick up torches and pitchforks.

One of the best posts in this thread!

I don't think that the alteration of Limited into Factory was so much to bring new guys in. It was a change to a division to set it apart from Tac Optics (Practical)

This thread would blow a gasket if I could find the rules from the old SOF where ONLY APPROVED scopes could be used.

We... the guys who actually shot the match didn't care, you either used what they said you could, shot Irons or stayed home.

[MarkCO]

This thread would blow a gasket if I could find the rules from the old SOF where ONLY APPROVED scopes could be used.

We... the guys who actually shot the match didn't care, you either used what they said you could, shot Irons or stayed home.

And I picked the wrong of the three choices (in the transitional SOF to RM3G match). Should have shot Irons, but I bought a Trijicon because people told me I would get smoked without it. Guess what, I still got smoked. I have shot every division (except IronMan Trooper) at least once, and I still shoot what I want, divisions don't make that much of a difference when it really get down to it. What does NASCAR have now, 11 Series and about 50 different classes? There was ONE prior to about 1947...don't let the cops catch you. Then one official one in 1949. If the sport is going to grow, experimentation is going to help some. But I wish that some people would stop tinkering with the safety rules as viewed through "competitive" glasses, that we do not need.

[Vlad]

Uphill!? Both ways?

Edited January 8, 2015 by Vlad

[TonytheTiger]

I agree 100% with everything Stlhead said. The only thing I have to add is that last time I checked, 3gun was the fastest growing shooting sport in the nation. I'm pretty sure the majority of that horde is starting out with non optimal equipment, from there they get hooked and start buying competitive gear. I have yet to see a person start with an m4 clone and say "if only this gun had a place to call home in this sport". Nope, just like everybody else they wanna go faster and like the idea of buying cool gear that makes it easier. I thought the divisions where great the way they where.

[Jadeslade]

I thought Stlhead closed this thread yesterday. Just scrolling by on my way to sigh up for Area 6 Multigun. I love that guys are bitching and don't even shoot 3GN Matches. Any comments about the new spring collection from Dior?