3 Gun Nation rule changes.

[gose]

For a minute I got really excited and thought that they would actually have an unlimited division. Then it turns out they just renamed Open. :/

What are some things you'd like to see in true Unlimited?

Things like removing the mag limits for pistols. It's silly to have restrictions on pistol mags but not rifle and shotgun mags. Or removing the restrictions on not modifying or reconfiguring things between stages.

Kinda like Trooper division, but without the restriction of having to carry everything between stages.

[Jadeslade]

So my Hiperfire 24c is illegal , but my Gieselle is legal in factory? I am not a fan of downloading mags, but I like your interpretation the best Mr. Jadeslade. Straight forward no interpretation needed.

why would your Hiperfire be illegal? I don't think you are all getting correct information.

[Jadeslade]

Too many smartasses here. Start your match. JFC

[ChuckS]

im not anything.

Very Zen

[Vlad]

im not anything. What are you talking about? You made up a hypothetical that doesn't exist. I was just explaining Factory to you.

Seriously, WTH? Some people in this thread wondered why factory doesn't mean "from the factory", I replied that it would be hard to enforce. I have no idea what you are talking about, but I don't think we are having the same conversation.

[Jadeslade]

I'm pretty sure you're not having a conversation. I can't help it that some are as verbally concrete as a three year old.

[bmiller]

So my Hiperfire 24c is illegal , but my Gieselle is legal in factory? I am not a fan of downloading mags, but I like your interpretation the best Mr. Jadeslade. Straight forward no interpretation needed.

why would your Hiperfire be illegal? I don't think you are all getting correct information.

Was not trying to be a smartass. My question is the 24c is flat with plastic shoe on it. Not factory. My Geiselle looks like a stock AR trigger. I am serious, I like your suggestions for the equipment rules. I have a 6" sight tracker in a 5" edge that I love that I shot limited with all last year. I am not sure it will be legal for Tarheel now. I don't want to drive 11 hours to be bumped to open. I will probably email Mr. Charles a pic before the match to figure it out. Edited January 5, 2015 by bmiller

[Stlhead]

I am all for crapping on 3Gn threads, but let's at least keep it entertaining. Either step up the personal attacks or get back to substantial discussion.

[gose]

I am all for crapping on 3Gn threads, but let's at least keep it entertaining. Either step up the personal attacks or get back to substantial discussion.

You smell bad.

[El Guapo]

So my Hiperfire 24c is illegal , but my Gieselle is legal in factory? I am not a fan of downloading mags, but I like your interpretation the best Mr. Jadeslade. Straight forward no interpretation needed.

why would your Hiperfire be illegal? I don't think you are all getting correct information.

Was not trying to be a smartass. My question is the 24c is flat with plastic shoe on it. Not factory. My Geiselle looks like a stock AR trigger. I am serious, I like your suggestions for the equipment rules. I have a 6" sight tracker in a 5" edge that I love that I shot limited with all last year. I am not sure it will be legal for Tarheel now. I don't want to drive 11 hours to be bumped to open. I will probably email Mr. Charles a pic before the match to figure it out.

I would be willing to bet both your rifle and your pistol will be legal in factory.

[bmiller]

So my Hiperfire 24c is illegal , but my Gieselle is legal in factory? I am not a fan of downloading mags, but I like your interpretation the best Mr. Jadeslade. Straight forward no interpretation needed.

why would your Hiperfire be illegal? I don't think you are all getting correct information.

Was not trying to be a smartass. My question is the 24c is flat with plastic shoe on it. Not factory. My Geiselle looks like a stock AR trigger. I am serious, I like your suggestions for the equipment rules. I have a 6" sight tracker in a 5" edge that I love that I shot limited with all last year. I am not sure it will be legal for Tarheel now. I don't want to drive 11 hours to be bumped to open. I will probably email Mr. Charles a pic before the match to figure it out.

I would be willing to bet both your rifle and your pistol will be legal in factory.

That is what I wanted to hear! I will hold you to it.

[Jadeslade]

So my Hiperfire 24c is illegal , but my Gieselle is legal in factory? I am not a fan of downloading mags, but I like your interpretation the best Mr. Jadeslade. Straight forward no interpretation needed.

why would your Hiperfire be illegal? I don't think you are all getting correct information.

Was not trying to be a smartass. My question is the 24c is flat with plastic shoe on it. Not factory. My Geiselle looks like a stock AR trigger. I am serious, I like your suggestions for the equipment rules. I have a 6" sight tracker in a 5" edge that I love that I shot limited with all last year. I am not sure it will be legal for Tarheel now. I don't want to drive 11 hours to be bumped to open. I will probably email Mr. Charles a pic before the match to figure it out.

. Wasn't talking about you. Don't take the word factory too literal. Your Edge is fine, just 15 in the mag. Only 30 round mags allowed. For rifle. And 8 in the shotgun tube. Email Charles. He's good at getting back to people. Or check out James Casanova's video explaining Factory rules on YouTube. See ya there.

[thermobollocks]

For a minute I got really excited and thought that they would actually have an unlimited division. Then it turns out they just renamed Open. :/

What are some things you'd like to see in true Unlimited?

Things like removing the mag limits for pistols. It's silly to have restrictions on pistol mags but not rifle and shotgun mags. Or removing the restrictions on not modifying or reconfiguring things between stages.

Kinda like Trooper division, but without the restriction of having to carry everything between stages.

I'd love to see stuff like pistol caliber carbines accepted on some stages/some targets. I don't know a good way to make it work though.

[MarkCO]

For a minute I got really excited and thought that they would actually have an unlimited division. Then it turns out they just renamed Open. :/

What are some things you'd like to see in true Unlimited?

Things like removing the mag limits for pistols. It's silly to have restrictions on pistol mags but not rifle and shotgun mags. Or removing the restrictions on not modifying or reconfiguring things between stages.

Kinda like Trooper division, but without the restriction of having to carry everything between stages.

I'd love to see stuff like pistol caliber carbines accepted on some stages/some targets. I don't know a good way to make it work though.

Really? We have been letting people shoot PCC, even pistol only at the CRC Multi-Gun matches for 2 years now.

[alma]

. Wasn't talking about you. Don't take the word factory too literal. Your Edge is fine, just 15 in the mag. Only 30 round mags allowed. For rifle. And 8 in the shotgun tube. Email Charles. He's good at getting back to people. Or check out James Casanova's video explaining Factory rules on YouTube. See ya there.

How should we understand the word "Factory" or phrase "Factory Configuration" when apparently neither have anything to do with any factory or the configuration of any firearm when it left said nonexistent factory?

In my view 80% of the questions about equipment would go away if they removed this ambiguous phrase from the rules and put whatever it is they actually want it to mean.

Edited January 5, 2015 by alma

[Stlhead]

So my Hiperfire 24c is illegal , but my Gieselle is legal in factory? I am not a fan of downloading mags, but I like your interpretation the best Mr. Jadeslade. Straight forward no interpretation needed.

why would your Hiperfire be illegal? I don't think you are all getting correct information.

Was not trying to be a smartass. My question is the 24c is flat with plastic shoe on it. Not factory. My Geiselle looks like a stock AR trigger. I am serious, I like your suggestions for the equipment rules. I have a 6" sight tracker in a 5" edge that I love that I shot limited with all last year. I am not sure it will be legal for Tarheel now. I don't want to drive 11 hours to be bumped to open. I will probably email Mr. Charles a pic before the match to figure it out.

. Wasn't talking about you. Don't take the word factory too literal. Your Edge is fine, just 15 in the mag. Only 30 round mags allowed. For rifle. And 8 in the shotgun tube. Email Charles. He's good at getting back to people. Or check out James Casanova's video explaining Factory rules on YouTube. See ya there.

"3-GUN NATION REGIONAL SERIES RULES January 2015 L.Turner / R.Romero

3GN reserves the right to change or modify rules as necessary."

It seems to me that L. Turner and R. Romero wrote these rules, and they should be the ones best able to provide an interpretation as to their intent.

As "factory configuration" is included in all of the divisions not just the "factory" division, it would seem very clear to me that they are using the common interpretation of the phrase, and not a more stringent as came from the factory sort of vibe. Again, I am not a 3gn cool guy, just a guy that reads sort of good. I think what is clouding the water is that the names have been changed and the new names seem to have certain connotations that do not necessarily seem to align with the written division rules. I think that the divisions should be renamed more along the lines of what the division rules stipulate. Factory should have been called "3GN Limited-er", practical should have been called "3GN Less Limited" or possibly "3GN Popular", and unlimited should have been "3GN Mostly Unlimited" or even"3GN open-ish". These names would have the dual benefit of not only better identifying the division but also further clarifying what ruleset the division is in.

As I don't shoot in 3GN Popular, or 3GN Mostly Unlimited, I will only speak to my thoughts on 3GN Limited-er. I like the proposed changes with the exception of the 15 round pistol rule, and I would not consider the 15 round rule a deal breaker, just that it is a needless and arbitrary limit. The rifle limit makes sense, 30 rounds is the standard size. 8 +1 is the start amount for the shotgun, so why not cap capacity at that to make it easy for compliance. The 15 rounds in the pistol is the arbitrary one, 140 is the accepted magazine length, why not use the same measure everyone else does and not have a bunch of drama?

The reason that this thread exists is to get some feedback on the rules prior to them being set in stone, let's spend our time debating the rules and possible improvements.

[gose]

As "factory configuration" is included in all of the divisions not just the "factory" division, it would seem very clear to me that they are using the common interpretation of the phrase, and not a more stringent as came from the factory sort of vibe.

Which historically has meant that pretty much anything goes, as long as its based on a "standard" 1911/2011 or AR platform. Even custom built ARs shooting wildcat calibers have been ok in the past...

If theyr'e trying to change that, they probably need to define and refine the rules a little further, since it's a can of worms. If not, then factory is a stupid name.

[alma]

The reason that this thread exists is to get some feedback on the rules prior to them being set in stone, let's spend our time debating the rules and possible improvements.

I am all for that. Step 1, drop the wording "Factory Configuration" or Original configuration. Insert whatever it is they actually wanted to say but it wasn't clear to me that they had anything in mind beyond "no prototypes."

Let me suggest a catchall over all categories that includes 1. No Prototype weapons, 2. No selective fire or full auto, 3. No double barrelled (yes, a double barrelled AR and 45 exist and they could be considered "factory" under these definitions")

Second, insert any other restrictions on modifications that you actually intend for each division.

List the modifications that you explicitly don't want to see. I don't know what those are or if you have any in mind since most everything is allowed in divisions. Perhaps you don't want frame weights, tac lights, or slide rackers? Can shooters legally add weight?

Perhaps consider listing some things that are allowed to alleviate questions. For example, Trigger work, mag wells, slide cuts/lightening, aftermarket sights, shotgun port work, AR handguards, AR stock, other AR hardware, etc.

[TyinTX]

As I don't shoot in 3GN Popular, or 3GN Mostly Unlimited, I will only speak to my thoughts on 3GN Limited-er. I like the proposed changes with the exception of the 15 round pistol rule, and I would not consider the 15 round rule a deal breaker, just that it is a needless and arbitrary limit. The rifle limit makes sense, 30 rounds is the standard size. 8 +1 is the start amount for the shotgun, so why not cap capacity at that to make it easy for compliance. The 15 rounds in the pistol is the arbitrary one, 140 is the accepted magazine length, why not use the same measure everyone else does and not have a bunch of drama?

The reason that this thread exists is to get some feedback on the rules prior to them being set in stone, let's spend our time debating the rules and possible improvements.

This is exactly what I am thinking on the pistol mags.Rifle mags in the same division have a set length but unlimited capacity.7.3.3.3 All Rifle magazines must be in a thirty (30) round factory configuration max length ONLY and fit in the magazine gauge. There is no maximum capacity, as long as the magazine is of legal length or less. Use of lower capacity magazines is allowed So if you can cram 32 rounds into a standard 30 round length rifle mag you are good to go, why not the same for 140 mm pistol mags? And I do have one rifle mag that fits 32 and is standard length.

[gose]

The reason that this thread exists is to get some feedback on the rules prior to them being set in stone, let's spend our time debating the rules and possible improvements.

Second, insert any other restrictions on modifications that you actually intend for each division.

List the modifications that you explicitly don't want to see. I don't know what those are or if you have any in mind since most everything is allowed in divisions. Perhaps you don't want frame weights, tac lights, or slide rackers? Can shooters legally add weight?

I think that listing allowed configurations and modifications would be preferred to the other way around, at least for a division like Factory that's supposed to be pretty restricted (I assume)

Edited January 5, 2015 by gose

[bmiller]

I like 140 mm mags no specific round amount. I want to run hi-caps as long as we are legally allowed:)

[Stlhead]

I would not see a problem with double barreled rifles or pistols, what would the advantage be? No need to write a rule to cover a problem that will never arise, and if someone does show up with one that would be entertaining as hell.

I do agree that more clear language could have been chosen, all that is really required is an additional Definitions section that could clear up many of the questions.

No length was given for rifle mags so we do not even know if a 30 round Pmag will be legal, we need to know the size of the magazine gauge. Is it length only? Isn't a Beta mag about as long as a standard 30 rounder, would that be legal?(obviously not just showing the need for a better defined restriction)

[gose]

No length was given for rifle mags so we do not even know if a 30 round Pmag will be legal, we need to know the size of the magazine gauge. Is it length only? Isn't a Beta mag about as long as a standard 30 rounder, would that be legal?(obviously not just showing the need for a better defined restriction)

They dont mention anything about caliber in the rules either, so when they say factory length, do they mean for .223/5.56? What about mags for other calibers?

[Moltke]

The problem with saying things like "factory configuration" or "only internal modifications are allowed" is that these phrases are already commonly in use, known by all, and well defined by existing action shooting sports.

It's an easy thing to fix by either having their own written definition or just removing the phrase. It's not like 3 Gun is going to stop having cross-sport shooters from the other action sports, if anything that's going to grow.

If the intent behind the phrasing is to say you can use guns that are commonly available on the open market, with parts that are commonly available on the market, to prevent the use of prototype guns.... then just say that.

(Edited to remove specific sport names???)

Edited January 5, 2015 by Moltke

[thermobollocks]

For a minute I got really excited and thought that they would actually have an unlimited division. Then it turns out they just renamed Open. :/

What are some things you'd like to see in true Unlimited?

Things like removing the mag limits for pistols. It's silly to have restrictions on pistol mags but not rifle and shotgun mags. Or removing the restrictions on not modifying or reconfiguring things between stages.

Kinda like Trooper division, but without the restriction of having to carry everything between stages.

I'd love to see stuff like pistol caliber carbines accepted on some stages/some targets. I don't know a good way to make it work though.

Really? We have been letting people shoot PCC, even pistol only at the CRC Multi-Gun matches for 2 years now.

Either I haven't been paying attention or I'm not cool enough to squad with any of the PCC users.

I thought 9mm rifle wouldn't make PF, but then I found the rule that says power factor doesn't apply to time plus scoring, which is something I could complain about for days.