Jesse Tischauser Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 AM stage 7 I shot all pistol, and smoked my squad. I'm an A limited shooter, and hate shotgun. Shotgun wasn't really an option with the no-shoot placement so close to the shoot steel. On AM stage 1, I shot 9 of the 12 poppers with shotgun, dumped it and went to pistol. You could make up the other poppers since you had to go up there anyhow to finish the stage. If I had shot open, I definitely would go pistol anytime I can. Did I mention I hate shotgun? Wouldn't break my heart if this became 2 gun. What shotgun r u using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I shot both of those all pistol. On stage 1 it seemed to me like while shooting the 9 poppers would have faster splits with the shotgun, dumping the shotgun grabbing the pistol and getting your mind into pistol mode after slapping the trigger on the shot gun wasn't the right choice... I finished right behind you on 1 and right ahead of you on 7. 7 was our first stage and I didn't quite have my head in the game. Stage 1 is where a guy on our squad had a popper not fall with the pistol and called for calibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 IMHO, the "swinging clays" are the best shotgun target in 3-Gun. You get most of the "flying clay" experience without the consistency and scoring headaches, and if someone hits one of those with a pistol, he earned it for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 IMHO, the "swinging clays" are the best shotgun target in 3-Gun. You get most of the "flying clay" experience without the consistency and scoring headaches, and if someone hits one of those with a pistol, he earned it for sure. I take it you have not yet shot the Black Sheep Kickers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 IMHO, the "swinging clays" are the best shotgun target in 3-Gun. You get most of the "flying clay" experience without the consistency and scoring headaches, and if someone hits one of those with a pistol, he earned it for sure. I take it you have not yet shot the Black Sheep Kickers. I have. They're cool, but I think the swingers, especially the really long-armed ones, are even better. Don't have to keep eyes on to score hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 The majority of the clays at the Novekse match are on swingers, the windmill and kickers, primarily for consistency. But I still think poppers and plates, as options, have great value, especially for those who are not at the top of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 This is the second major match with optional targets that I shot two stages using almost all pistol. I remember back when 3-gun still required 3-guns. It was weird! Well, I solved that problem at FNH last year by having my pistol $&!+ the bed mid-stage, so I ended up having to use rifle on paper anyway. Didn't do much for my time, but it certainly made added to the variety! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Jesse, I shot a Benelli M1 with 8+1, so I shot 9 fast, then dumped it. I SUCK loading a shotgun, and the quad loading everyone is doing is opening the gap even wider. I am truly envious of you guys that can quad load so fast. I hear learning to load a shotgun and getting to Carnegie Hall goes down the same path...practice. That and $350 worth of mods. I just have more background in pistol, and am much more confident in that. My brother is just the opposite. He'd rather shoot his Saiga than his open STI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Well when you can load 21 rounds under 2 seconds, I can see why you'd want to use the shotgun more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) Well when you can load 21 rounds under 2 seconds, I can see why you'd want to use the shotgun more. REMOVED OMG, I about lost it when the double tactical flashlights were shown! Good stuff. Edited August 27, 2014 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I like optional targets, but when they are set within a stage between the transitions so that all guns must be used. The shooter can then rely on 1 a bit more as there strengths dictate. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 From what I've seen and experience very few shooters would choose shotgun over pistol when it comes to optional shoot plates, and it was pointed out earlier to "more" optional plates the less likely you'll engage them with a shotgun. So the question is how do you neutralize the benefits of shooting plates with a pistol over shotgun? One of the most effective tools i've seen is basically a two box theory, If targets are to be engaged with shotgun shoot from "Box A" if pistol "Box B'. I wonder how many people would still choose pistol if they had to engage pistol targets at 25yards vs taking them with a shotgun at 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 At our local matches, we typically have a high number of new or still green shooters. We don't give options because it just makes it that much more overwhelming for them to deal with stage breakdown. Stage briefs are pretty specific on where guns are staged, what targets must be shot with what gun, etc. The seasoned shooters don't have to think too hard, but we don't get all backed up because of new shooters spending too much time trying to sort it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Well, it seems like there a lot fewer "options" at FNH this year than in the previous matches... timely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Theres no reason we can't have the best of both worlds with courses of fire that dictate what gets shot with what, while at the same time allow competitors to decide other courses of fire on their own Its a time based event so shooting optional targets with a gun that takes less overall time is just going to be part of the game. Pistol and rifles have higher capacity and reload faster so they'll always win out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 IMHO, the "swinging clays" are the best shotgun target in 3-Gun. You get most of the "flying clay" experience without the consistency and scoring headaches, and if someone hits one of those with a pistol, he earned it for sure. I take it you have not yet shot the Black Sheep Kickers. With the proper backstop they would make interesting pistol targets! Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) If I had shot open, I definitely would go pistol anytime I can. Did I mention I hate shotgun? Wouldn't break my heart if this became 2 gun. I shoot open and my experience is that the choice is harder in Open than in TO. Yes, I can shoot my Open pistol slightly faster than my Iron sights, but when I can start with 18+1 in my shotgun and have another 15 after a 2s reload, it's starting to look pretty appealing to hose those steel targets with birdshot.. Edited August 27, 2014 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 From what I've seen and experience very few shooters would choose shotgun over pistol when it comes to optional shoot plates, and it was pointed out earlier to "more" optional plates the less likely you'll engage them with a shotgun. So the question is how do you neutralize the benefits of shooting plates with a pistol over shotgun? One of the most effective tools i've seen is basically a two box theory, If targets are to be engaged with shotgun shoot from "Box A" if pistol "Box B'. I wonder how many people would still choose pistol if they had to engage pistol targets at 25yards vs taking them with a shotgun at 15. In the case of a typical multigun match, where you don't generally do shoot boxes, this can be addressed by where you put the dump barrels. If shooting the optional targets with pistol from close range requires you to run somewhere else to dump the pistol before you get to the presumably mandatory rifle targets, then it might not be worth moving closer to go with pistol. I think the best "optional" target presentations I have seen are the ones where there are enough targets you will end up shooting both guns, and it just becomes a matter of either (1) being selective about which ones you take with shotgun (those smaller, harder targets) or (2) choosing how many shells you are willing to reload before switching to pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 IMHO, the "swinging clays" are the best shotgun target in 3-Gun. You get most of the "flying clay" experience without the consistency and scoring headaches, and if someone hits one of those with a pistol, he earned it for sure. I take it you have not yet shot the Black Sheep Kickers. With the proper backstop they would make interesting pistol targets! Doug Actually, I have shot them with a full sized popper to activate at 100 yards. A bit challenging to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Back to the illusion of choice. Sometimes I think this is the matrix. Red or blue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therealkoop Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Optional targets are awesome. Paper for pistol/rifle/slugs, steels for shotgun/pistol. Give em to me. Sure, everyone that wants to win is probably going to shoot it close to the same way, but who cares? Freedom is fun. Make the stages wonky if you want to really pick peoples brains. I like to see variation in stage plans, esp when someone does something weird as shit and still posts solid times. The more you dictate positions, targets, ect, the less fun the game is. Its becomes the hokey pokey, or IDPA at a certain point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) Sure, everyone that wants to win is probably going to shoot it close to the same way, but who cares?No offense but I do. The top 10-20% of shooters are being forced to shoot all pistol because it's faster than transitioning in/out of a shotgun and/or loading a shotgun. While I'm ALL for making a match more fun and rewarding for new or inexperienced shooters I am not having much fun shooting a 3-gun match with 50% pistol, 25% rifle, 25% shotgun.How many 3-gun matches would you shoot with that ratio? I think most of us would opt for a higher % of the long guns and less than 33% on the short gun simply because their are a lot more options for pistol games than there are for shotgun/rifle games. Edited August 28, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Amazing... I agree with what Jesse just said! And to add another point, we often build "choices" into stages, but they are pretty dificult to do what we consider correctly. We weigh all possibilities we can think of by spending a lot of time "what ifing" the choice part of the stage, or the entire stage if its a total choice stage. Then try to "fix it" so the choice part is equal no matter what the choice was. Case in point; 2013's RM3G stage 6 on the railroad bed. (Di's most favorite stage) If you shot it, you know what I am talking about... Anyway, when the match is over, and you can't find any 2 people that shot the stage the same, you know you designed it right. That is the way choices should be, not obviously a right way and a wrong way, but making the shooter think about it for a while, and probably choosing a way different from others. Choices are good! jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Or you can design stages that offer more options on how to shoot it other than which gun you are going to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Or you can design stages that offer more options on how to shoot it other than which gun you are going to use. Yep... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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