Optional Pistol Shotgun Targets

[Moltke]

Or you can design stages that offer more options on how to shoot it other than which gun you are going to use.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaatt???????

[Bryan 45]

45% rifle, 45% shotgun, 10% handgun.....

Now we're talking!

[Jesse Tischauser]

45% rifle, 45% shotgun, 10% handgun.....

Now we're talking!

I like where your head is at. Id go 20% to ease the transition into 3-gun for the one gunners from IDPgAy and USPSgAy.

[AustinWolv]

Sure, everyone that wants to win is probably going to shoot it close to the same way, but who cares?

No offense but I do. The top 10-20% of shooters are being forced to shoot all pistol because it's faster than transitioning in/out of a shotgun and/or loading a shotgun. While I'm ALL for making a match more fun and rewarding for new or inexperienced shooters I am not having much fun shooting a 3-gun match with 50% pistol, 25% rifle, 25% shotgun.

How many 3-gun matches would you shoot with that ratio? I think most of us would opt for a higher % of the long guns and less than 33% on the short gun simply because their are a lot more options for pistol games than there are for shotgun/rifle games.

Agreed with this and JJ's post, especially after shooting some local matches with optional targets that resulted in a string of months where I think I did not take the shotgun out of the case for one match, shot 6 shells at the next month's match, and then maybe 10 at the next one.....something like that at least. It got to the point that I started choosing to use the shotgun just so I could get some practice/use on it at the detriment of my stage plan/performance.

[Stlhead]

If you are shooting 50% pistol, you are going to the wrong matches.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Just finished the ProAm which had most knock down steal targets as optional with shot or pistol. I've come to the conclusion that for the top shooters the only option is pistol after seeing two of the fastest pistol speed shooters in BJ Norris and Todd Jarrett smash two stages shooting all pistol rather than any shotgun. Heck the shotgun is my strongest gun and the pistol the weakest and I shot only 50 rounds of shot and close to 200 rounds of pistol.

What is everyone else's take on the optional targets after seeing them at matches now for over a year.

On Stage 6 at the ProAm, I shot all shotgun....and if given the option again, I would have to think hard about it. Shooting all shotgun there, loading smooth, and going one for one while moving would easily yield a 27-28 sec run. I ran it in 35 with 3 make up shots, and going dry while standing still for a port load...wasting valuable time. Up until the array past the doorway on the right, my run was cruising along great and fast. I would have to consider taking those targets while moving to the dump barrel on the left there and finishing with pistol on the last 11 targets along the back.

Stage 2...I shot all shotgun after the rifle. The rifle killed me there, then I managed to run dry on the last target, then port load to a miss, then pull pistol for one target....a total nightmare IMO. I would shoot it all shotgun again, loading four down the hill, then four moving to the window....but take a split second longer between shots.

Stage 3....optional plates with shotgun/pistol after a single rifle shot. I didn't care for the paper being pistol only all the sudden when it was pistol/rifle on the other stages. It heavily benefitted the pistol shooters. If paper remained pistol/rifle optional, I would have definitely used the rifle for more than one shot! I shot 9 shotgun and went to pistol, which ran great. I'd love to have the exact setup to try all pistol compared to how I ran it. Of course, I'm unclassified in USPSA too.

Stage 7....only loading 4 shotgun and able to shoot while trucking down the hill. I'd go with shotgun every time there.

I like the concept of optional targets, but oftentimes...there is really ONE good way to shoot it, and you either have that strength or you don't.

IMO, if you are going to make targets optional, they need to be optional on all stages throughout the match. IE... allorange steel is rifle/pistol/slug, all paper is rifle/pistol/slug, all white steel is pistol/birdshot. Just my 2 cents.

[bigbrowndog]

So we're upset that a match has 40-50% pistol, and the balance split between the long guns, and referring to it as a 3 gun match,......but we're OK with a match having 90% long guns and 10% pistol?????????? someone needs to look up the definition of HYPOCRITICAL.

Don't get me wrong, IMO, a 3 gun match should have an even balance between the guns, but this is what you wind up with when you give shooters OPTION targets, whoever thought this was a good idea must not have been able to see the ramifications of the decision, or was simply looking at a way to keep from having to use a gun they didn't want to practice with.

Trapr

[EaZeNuTZ33]

So we're upset that a match has 40-50% pistol, and the balance split between the long guns, and referring to it as a 3 gun match,......but we're OK with a match having 90% long guns and 10% pistol?????????? someone needs to look up the definition of HYPOCRITICAL.

Don't get me wrong, IMO, a 3 gun match should have an even balance between the guns, but this is what you wind up with when you give shooters OPTION targets, whoever thought this was a good idea must not have been able to see the ramifications of the decision, or was simply looking at a way to keep from having to use a gun they didn't want to practice with.

Trapr

I wouldnt go that far personally. I like the optional targets, but stage design becomes even more important. You can make option stages where you're punished for shooting any single go too much. Many option stages tho, lean towards pistol proficiency. I would prefer to see a 33.33% Pistol / 33.33% Shotgun / 33.33% Rifle breakdown that could be adjusted a max of 5% in any direction based upon the options selected....but again, stage design requires a smart fella.

[Jesse Tischauser]

So we're upset that a match has 40-50% pistol, and the balance split between the long guns, and referring to it as a 3 gun match,......but we're OK with a match having 90% long guns and 10% pistol?????????? someone needs to look up the definition of HYPOCRITICAL.

Trapr

It's called humor. Lighten up there Sport!

[kurtm]

It mean a really big critical that likes to soak in water up to it's nostrils????

[LoganbillJ]

Option stages are good when done correctly. I will admit I have designed some good, some bad for our monthly matches. Maybe Dillen can confirm this. Regardless it takes a lot of thought to design a stage that can be shot several ways in roughly the same amount of time. I also tend to lean toward having more 3 gun stages and just 1 or two "option" stages. I like the 33% break-down. It is 3 gun after all.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Option stages are good when done correctly. I will admit I have designed some good, some bad for our monthly matches. Maybe Dillen can confirm this. Regardless it takes a lot of thought to design a stage that can be shot several ways in roughly the same amount of time. I also tend to lean toward having more 3 gun stages and just 1 or two "option" stages. I like the 33% break-down. It is 3 gun after all.

It takes more thought indeed, and you guys have done a great job with matches so far....and an even better job of taking constructive criticism from various shooters on how to improve on future stages/matches. <--Something I wish was more welcomed universally.

You can eliminate options by making it stupid to run way forward to shoot, then way back to the dump barrel, but IMO...targets are either optional for the match...or not.

[bigbrowndog]

Oh OK jessie, so when you post something and I misread it its humor but when i post something and you misread it,....................... I'm attacking you personally. GOT IT, again HYPOCRITICAL, look it up!!!!

Trapr

[Jesse Tischauser]

Trapr, Using capital letters online doesn't mean HUMOR it means your YELLING at us. That's why your posts are hard to UNDERSTAND!

Edited August 28, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Moltke]

If youre going to balance each gun to make up 1/3 of the shots fired in the match

Then how about a distribution of high and low accuracy requirements too, say 50 / 50 or maybe 75 / 25 if we want more speed than accuracy?

[bigbrowndog]

Forgive me Jesse, Proper writing etiquette says capital letters are used for Emphasis, much like underlineing or italics. If I want to YELL at you I'll call you up and do it so you know I'm yelling.

Maybe someone should write up a standardized set of rules for interweb fairplay,...........sorry for thread drift

trapr

[AustinT]

I think optional targets dumb the sport down. I dislike them rather strongly.

Austin "Old and Grumpy Before His Time" T

[alma]

I dislike them. We spend all this time and effort learning how to load shotguns and throw it away by designing stages where you would never need to reload (or sometimes even use) a shotgun.

My best assumption is whoever designed the stage either doesn't like reloading shotguns or thinks they are a better pistol shooter than average... or both

[AustinT]

Exactly. Optional stages mean I'm shooting 9 or less rounds out of the shotgun, or not taking it at all. Why did I spend all this time on loading practice and money on caddies?

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Exactly. Optional stages mean I'm shooting 9 or less rounds out of the shotgun, or not taking it at all. Why did I spend all this time on loading practice and money on caddies?

Or not shooting pistol at all for me.

Could you clarify your position tho...

[alma]

Exactly. Optional stages mean I'm shooting 9 or less rounds out of the shotgun, or not taking it at all. Why did I spend all this time on loading practice and money on caddies?

Or not being competitive shooting pistol at all for me.

FIFY

[Jesse Tischauser]

Forgive me Jesse, Proper writing etiquette says capital letters are used for Emphasis, much like underlineing or italics. If I want to YELL at you I'll call you up and do it so you know I'm yelling.

Maybe someone should write up a standardized set of rules for interweb fairplay,...........sorry for thread drift

trapr

What do you know? It's in the internet.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette_in_technology

[dcloudy777]

I think optional targets dumb the sport down. I dislike them rather strongly.

Austin "Old and Grumpy Before His Time" T

How can making shooters think more and make decisions "dumb down" the game?

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Exactly. Optional stages mean I'm shooting 9 or less rounds out of the shotgun, or not taking it at all. Why did I spend all this time on loading practice and money on caddies?

Or not being competitive shooting pistol at all for me.

FIFY

trust me.....I can miss as fast as anyone with my pistol, just never fast enough to win.

[AustinT]

It's not thinking more and it's not a decision. It's a drag race to shoot 9 rounds out of a shotgun, and then figure out how to get rid of it. Pistol is the fastest gun for 95% of stages that I've shot.