Optional Pistol Shotgun Targets

[Jesse Tischauser]

Ha! We do get to choose with our wallets on which matches we shoot but when every match is now trying to add this failed attempt at fun called optional targets we don't have any options in matches now do we. Especially since you don't know what stage is on the ground until you've spent $1500 on airfare, hotels, and such. Maybe we can get MD's to start posting drone footage of the stages with a narrator so we can decide before we send in our applications. Oh wait you gotta sign up for almost every match 15 months in advance. So the old I vote with my wallet saying doesn't matter anyway because some unknowing new shooter will gladly take your "screw you I'm not coming paying for that match" slot and not know what he's getting into. MD's have us by the balls. Thankfully most of them visit this site and listen to us discus the good the bad and the ugly.

[Stlhead]

Have you spoken with the MD's in question directly? They may be unaware of the situation and might welcome your input as a pro shooter. Or as another option you could offer to set stages a match as an example of stages you would prefer to see at matches. In any case, I still won't go to a match I don't like, I don't care if it fills up or not. There are a lot of fun things that a guy can do besides go to a match that would raise this sort of ire from shooters.

Also, I saw that video where you poked fun at Outzen, just be careful, those Utah folks are not good at taking jokes, and Craig knows how to get rid of bodies. Alone time with the big man may not be advisable for a while.

[logiztix]

I'm curious if anyone that shot the CT M3GI actually saw anyone engage the optional pistol/shotgun plate rack on 'Grip It & Rip It' with shotgun at the required 55 yard position, rather than pistol at the required 40 yard position? Granted, both options were sub-optimal, but a 55 yard plate rack with #6 seemed like the worst of two bad ideas. Nobody in our squad attempted shotgun, but then again, half timed out or ran out of pistol magazines at the plate rack.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I'm curious if anyone that shot the CT M3GI actually saw anyone engage the optional pistol/shotgun plate rack on 'Grip It & Rip It' with shotgun at the required 55 yard position, rather than pistol at the required 40 yard position? Granted, both options were sub-optimal, but a 55 yard plate rack with #6 seemed like the worst of two bad ideas. Nobody in our squad attempted shotgun, but then again, half timed out or ran out of pistol magazines at the plate rack.

That plate rack was ridiculous. The only thing more ridiculous would have been shooting it with a shotgun at 55 yards.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Moltke]

Well... There is a culture of having pistol and shotgun targets be hoser targets with the only true precision being long range rifle shots. If one gun is going to be pushed towards its limit of accuracy, its nice to see that requirement being pushed for other guns. Balance.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Moltke

[toothandnail]

Interesting how 3gun has changed my perception of a hard shot. Coming from a hunting only background here in MO, where 100 yds was a decent long shot, 300 was extreme.

Maybe I better backup some more, I started deer hunting with a 12ga with slugs back in the 70's where a 50yd shot was extreme

Anyway, now, in most instances 300 isn't hard, 500 is challenging but do-able, 600+ is getting out there for these old eyes/ shakey hands.(I guess we'll see tomorrw when some of us RO's shoot the Gen lll)

In our monthly matches, we have recently started putting 1 or 2 2/3 IPSC at 40-50yds for pistol, most guys are when they see it. Most are also suprised when they can hit it.

Nothing that will destroy a guys match, but interesting to push the envelope of what guys think are possible with certian guns.

I still remember the MD at the Ozark match, shooting a 2/3 IPSC at 100 with his 38 super, I think it took 2 shots to get on target, he hit 5/7 after that, Joshua shot our plate rack at 75yds a while back with his .40 , I think it was 6-6" plates in 10-12 shots.

Edited August 31, 2014 by toothandnail

[Jesse Tischauser]

Well... There is a culture of having pistol and shotgun targets be hoser targets with the only true precision being long range rifle shots. If one gun is going to be pushed towards its limit of accuracy, its nice to see that requirement being pushed for other guns. Balance.

Shoot Rocky Mountain. All three guns get an Accuracy challenge and then some.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

All I can say at this point is to ask the shooters who are shooting Noveske what they think about choice in stages.

[T Bacus]

The answer is really not all that difficult. There is no reason you cannot allow the competitor some choice in how they choose to shoot a stage, so as to play to their strengths, while at the same time insuring all firearms are used. Require that all paper targets may be shot with rifle or pistol, all steel may be shot with pistol or shotgun and clay targets must be shot with the shotgun. Then put plenty of all three down range.

[dmshozer1]

4" square at 20 yards is a "F-You" target to the average guy because they're going to spend a magazine's worth of ammo trying to hit it with a pistol, or not be running a tight enough choke / hot enough load with a shotgun to knock it down.

Maybe some learning will occur from the experience?? but really what is the good side of forcing someone to play "pistol sniper" or make them do a shotgun mag dump on a target?

Give people reasonable targets they can hit & knockdown in 1 round if they can apply Sight Alignment & Trigger Control with each gun. Then see who can do it 1) the fastest 2) with the fewest misses, mistakes & penalties.

The accuracy requirement in 3 Gun doesn't need to be made extra hard because its an active time based contest.

RIGHT FU--ING ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dmshozer1]

True and ive seen that in action. But not respecting a target is different than its level of difficulty. Thats the shooter making it hard, not because the target is hard.

If you consider an accurized "3 gun pistol" can shoot a 1-2 inch group from a rest at 25 yards then with a 4 inch target you're pushing shooters close to the limit of mechanical accuracy while on the clock. Striker guns off the shelf rarely have that accuracy even after significant work so knowing what people are going to arrive with that target is a pretty high demand. Especially considering its an "action" sport you take the "action" to a standstill when you out introduce an unusually high accuracy requirement.

Larger targets test the shooter not the gear.

RIGHT FU__ING ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kellyn]

I personally like option targets (as I like pistols better than shotguns!) but it is super difficult for match directors to design stages where the pistol doesn't rule. If the MD is not careful it does become a 2.15 gun match.

The only time I would ever pickup a shotgun is for a 360 swinger, aerial targets, and super heavy set targets that need an ounce of lead to knock over. I believe Richard Bhella is the only Stage designer whoever got me to pick up a shotgun on an option target.

I'm not sure what I would have done on that grip it and rip it stage, probably pistol but I've got a turkey extra full choke in the bag.......

I dont think a 4 in plate at 20 is a "f you" but it does pose a challenge. Of course bullseye shooters engage a smaller 10 ring at 25 and they do it with a heavier trigger.

So much 3 gun is who can shoot the easy targets the fastest which is too bad.

Edited September 3, 2014 by kellyn

[J.Schmitt]

I personally like option targets (as I like pistols better than shotguns!) but it is super difficult for match directors to design stages where the pistol doesn't rule.

So much 3 gun is who can shoot the easy targets the fastest which is too bad.

That is an interesting comment!

On a side note I see that Blue Ridge will have some optionals, steel and paper, on 3 of the 9 stages. I will be interested to see how Andy Horner set it up as his target are often not the easiest.

Jay

[kurtm]

Dmshozer1 your "action to a standstill" comment applies in spades to spinner targets, and yet a bunch of folks like those things and think they are a great skill test. Perhaps an accuracy test is just as salient, but far fewer folks can pass the accuracy test.

I think that the idea of an "option" target is just plain silly. All it was invented for was for people to make up for a difficentcy in skill that they don't want to work on. On a more "where the sport came from" note. If you were to go clear a building of 12-17 bad guys would you rely on your underpowered hand gun, or would you stoke up the gage or carbine? Would you sit out front with them laid out before you and say well today I don't feel like I can load a shotgun fast so I'm going with my trusty nine?

[dcloudy777]

Dmshozer1 your "action to a standstill" comment applies in spades to spinner targets, and yet a bunch of folks like those things and think they are a great skill test. Perhaps an accuracy test is just as salient, but far fewer folks can pass the accuracy test.

I think that the idea of an "option" target is just plain silly. All it was invented for was for people to make up for a difficentcy in skill that they don't want to work on. On a more "where the sport came from" note. If you were to go clear a building of 12-17 bad guys would you rely on your underpowered hand gun, or would you stoke up the gage or carbine? Would you sit out front with them laid out before you and say well today I don't feel like I can load a shotgun fast so I'm going with my trusty nine?

Well by that logic we should just have rifle matches. Life-threatening attacks by flying birds are pretty rare.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

ever see a Steven King movie?

[mike4045]

Hey Mark I did shot the Noveske match. I liked the stages with options. My choices were shoot the shotgun dry and dump it as fast as possible. Get to work with the shotgun. I suck at loading shotgun. I think it was stage 4. I did get the reshoot at the end of Saturday with the popper that would not go down. I did not try for the doubles with shotgun because it would have forced me reload. The other 2 bay stage was run shotgun dry and finish with the pistol. I can only load 9 in my tube. I am thinking of trying a tube for 12 rds to give more options. A little of topic but I did win a cool cert for a suppressor from Thunder Beast though.

Next up is Fallen Brethren the round count there is showing to be the most equal round count match in a while. I happen to really suck with a rifle. It will be a long match.

[kurtm]

My pistol is on me to fight my way to a more powerful platform that I shouldn't have left behind. It is also there in case my primary platform goes down. I don't see where that precludes 3-gunning....it is just the LAST option.

[Stlhead]

KA CAWW! KA CAWW!

If (When) the zombie birds attack I will be ready!

For me 3 gun is just a game I like to play, not any form of training or simulation of combat. I know that there are many that disagree, and that the roots of the sport are based on the martial use of firearms, but when the participants are wearing jerseys with sponsors logos in bright colors and cleats, we are about as close to combat as NASCAR is to running moonshine.

[BobS761]

Are there really optional targets? Take my .02 for what its worth, because I've barely been in 3 gun for a year, but almost every match I've been in has had an all shotgun stage, some even had all rifle, and all have some combination of 2 or 3 guns. So, if one platform is faster/easier/higher chance for success, is it really optional? Personally, I don't care, I'm there to shoot and have fun, as well as hopefully improve my skills. It's all part of a puzzle to solve and execute the solution.

[Sterling White]

Resident Evil comes to mind - a flame thrower worked well in that situmination. Not sure that I'm ready at a moments notice but I could McGiver something in a short time.

Kurts idea really does make a lot of sense - if the rifle or shotgun goes down then go to the pistol. Ridiculous, well maybe however up to 100 yard targets are not without reason.

[Moltke]

This month marks the 34 year anniversary of the first SOF 3 gun competition and the sport has come a long way from the combat fantasy that it once was.

It's bigger and faster and gamier than its ever been; pushing guns, gear and people to their limit & gaining recognition for being the culmination of the action shooting sports. Option targets are a way to allow people who aren't amazing with every gun play to their strengths and have the best performance they possibly can overall. Just like "stage points factored scoring", its a way for people who suck at something (long range rifle) to minimize the impact. For others its a way to maximize their skill with their original discipline to "gain ground" on other competitors.

Properly managed any aspect of 3 Gun can be a great thing, or improperly managed it can be craptastic, but I think we can all agree on the following: More 3 gunners is better for everyone.

If "option targets" gets a dedicated pistolero / shotgunner / rifleman to come shoot 3 gun because they can maximize their performance with their "favorite" gun, then how is that not a good thing? The more, the merrier. Match directors should still have courses of fire that are 2 gun, 3 gun, and mandatory targets, or whatever they please. Personally I'd like to see MORE of everything. More 3 gunners. More targets downrange. More choice on what to shoot. More choice on HOW to shoot. More focus on shooting than running. More focus on shooting a shotgun than loading (a shotgun). More matches. More "hard shots". More everything.

With enough targets downrange, everyone can be satisfied.

[alma]

I would say long range rifle is the one skill that is never an "optional" at matches.

[AustinT]

There seems to be a trend toward those who don't have to or don't want to load a shotgun preferring optional targets. Curious. I in particular spent a lot of time on that skill and I'd like to get some benefit out of it.

[dcloudy777]

There seems to be a trend toward those who don't have to or don't want to load a shotgun preferring optional targets. Curious. I in particular spent a lot of time on that skill and I'd like to get some benefit out of it.

I like idea of having the option of engaging as many targets as possible with the pistol, but for most targets, there should be a significant "disadvantage" to doing so (this mimics real life fairly accurately).

So the key is thinking of targets and ways to present targets that are tougher with pistol than shotgun (or rifle). Small targets, moving targets, heavy targets....