Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Optional Pistol Shotgun Targets


Recommended Posts

It's not thinking more and it's not a decision. It's a drag race to shoot 9 rounds out of a shotgun, and then figure out how to get rid of it. Pistol is the fastest gun for 95% of stages that I've shot.

Okay, I see what you're getting at.

It's nothing that can't be fixed with stage design though... "optional" targets have too often become "pistol targets that you can use your shotgun on". If they become more "shotgun targets that a pistol can neutralize, but it's going to take more time", then balance can be restored with out turning into 3-gun IDPA.

Good examples: Those wretched 4" round plates at more than 7 yards... clays can work too, but the wrong kind of holder can get beat up by pistol rounds.

Poppers set heavy where it takes a very high pistol hit (or maybe even multiple hits like a subgun match) to knock them over

Pretty much anything moving.... that's what shotguns are for after all...

Opportunities for "doubles"... really bring "risk versus reward" into the equation....

If you'd get a lot of complaining about it in a USPSA stage, it's probably a good candidate for a "pistol/shotgun" target. :devil:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 187
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Heavy poppers won't work because If it takes a high pistol hit to knock it over the target is not calibrated for pistol and therefore not an option for a pistol.

Small targets far away aren't really optional if everyone shoots shotgun. Plus far away hard targets aren't' fun with any gun. So why make the match not fun for the sake of having options that nobody takes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So more bayonet-range hoser targets, but now you have to shoot them with a shotgun?

Yuck.

Who wants to shoot 100+ 4" shotgun plates at 20 yards in a match so the only option is shotgun not pistol? The point is that you can set targets of any shape size and at any distance you want as long as it's not an optional target. You can have both hard and easy pistol and/or shotgun targets in the same array. If you make everything optional pistol you gotta make the target presentation such that it's too hard to shoot with a pistol therefore forcing the shooter to shoot everything with a shotgun.

Wait until you get good enough with a pistol to see what I'm talking about. You won't like it either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So more bayonet-range hoser targets, but now you have to shoot them with a shotgun?

Yuck.

Who wants to shoot 100+ 4" shotgun plates at 20 yards in a match so the only option is shotgun not pistol? The point is that you can set targets of any shape size and at any distance you want as long as it's not an optional target. You can have both hard and easy pistol and/or shotgun targets in the same array. If you make everything optional pistol you gotta make the target presentation such that it's too hard to shoot with a pistol therefore forcing the shooter to shoot everything with a shotgun.

Wait until you get good enough with a pistol to see what I'm talking about. You won't like it either.

Actually your 2-gun concept sounds even better... just leave the pistols for pistol matches.

Okay, I think we're actually on the same page here.

Except for the whole "getting better with a pistol" thing.... I peaked a few years back, and I'm comfortable with that. :ph34r:

Edited by dcloudy777
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the variation in skill levels at a major match play a role the ease of setting a stage up properly to keep the top his from shooting all pistol and the bottom Guys from shooting all shotgun.

really? :blink::huh:^_^

Most 3g shooters have their roots in one of the pistol sports while some come from the shotgun world. When given the option I would say that the majority would go with their strongest skill set at a match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the variation in skill levels at a major match play a role the ease of setting a stage up properly to keep the top his from shooting all pistol and the bottom Guys from shooting all shotgun.

really? :blink::huh:^_^

Most 3g shooters have their roots in one of the pistol sports while some come from the shotgun world. When given the option I would say that the majority would go with their strongest skill set at a match.

That was the case a few years ago, but now all the new folks showing up to our local matches don't have any roots...3 gun is their first shooting sport.

My first was Hi-Power, so I'm neither pistol nor shotgun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and you do have to keep in mind that many are newer shooters who may not have the gear or skill for those 20 plus yard shotgun/pistol steel.

You know, the guy with the fixed cylinder choked 870 who is reloading off of a camo loadbearing vest of some kind and whose skills with an XD just isn't going to cut it for anything that he couldn't reasonably hit with a rock.

I am not saying don't have it but balance out the difficulty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the variation in skill levels at a major match play a role the ease of setting a stage up properly to keep the top his from shooting all pistol and the bottom Guys from shooting all shotgun.

really? :blink::huh:^_^

Most 3g shooters have their roots in one of the pistol sports while some come from the shotgun world. When given the option I would say that the majority would go with their strongest skill set at a match.

That was the case a few years ago, but now all the new folks showing up to our local matches don't have any roots...3 gun is their first shooting sport.

My first was Hi-Power, so I'm neither pistol nor shotgun.

Yeah you're right Austin. It's weird when you see a guy with $5-10k in guns and gear and he's not a USPSA or IDPA guy. 3-Gun Nation on TV is reaching the masses for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jessie, lets use an actual example of a stage that both of us shot not too long ago. Stage 8 at the CT night match "Puppet Master" How did you shoot the second bay? And how do you think you did compared to what you would perceive your personal best would be if you ran it a few more times? I shot it all shotgun, and and had a pretty good run for me @ 77% of the stage winner. Not my best percentage ever, but considering my handicap, I am happy with it. Had I turned in the best run I could hope for I would only have picked up 3 or 4%. I do not think I could have transitioned to pistol and put down the poppers as fast as just using the shotgun that I already had in my hands, but I could imagine that there are those who are faster with a pistol that could do it, those on my squad that who pistol where not able to make up any time, what did you see?

Edited by Stlhead
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jessie, lets use an actual example of a stage that both of us shot not too long ago. Stage 8 at the CT night match "Puppet Master" How did you shoot the second bay? And how do you think you did compared to your what you would perceive your personal best would be if you ran it a few more times? I shot it all shotgun, and and had a pretty good run for me @ 77% of the stage winner. Not my best percentage ever, but considering my handicap, I am happy with it. Had it turned in the best run I could hope for I would only have picked up 3 or 4%. I do not think I could have transitioned to pistol and put down the poppers as fast as just using the shotgun that I already had in my hands, but I could imagine that there are those who are faster with a pistol that could do it, those on my squad that who pistol where not able to make up any time, what did you see?

That's not a good example or match since we are all shooting space guns with lights/lasers and 40 round shotgun tubes. I shot it awesome. Finished third by a second and shot all 17rds with shotgun with no reload. If I would have had 18 in my gun I could have shot a second faster and maybe won the stage. Not sure how Garcia and Horner shot it they beat me by 1-2 seconds. If I would have need one more shell I would have transitioned to my pistol. If I need 20 rounds I would have shot all pistol.

Edited by Jesse Tischauser
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that it is an excellent example. You chose to shoot it with your shotgun, so did I. Better than half of the people on my squad used the pistol. When you decided to shoot all shotgun you did so based on the information that you had at the time, shotgun capacity, number of targets, relative difficulty of the targets, the physical condition that you expected to be in when engaging the targets, if you had cold hands and felt the shotgun was easier to shoot, what had better lights, and any number of other factors. You made a choice and stuck with it, and by your own admission it worked for you. I did the same and also think it worked. All of the choice stages are this way, even if you think that there really is no choice and you decide to shoot it all pistol, that is still a choice. If the stage design seems to force you into a certain choice how is that any worse than giving you NO choice? I think that more choice is better, even if on it's surface it does not seem that anyone would exercise the choice. The creative solution to the shooting problem is the part I like, and why I like 3 gun more than any single gun sport. More possible ways to solve the shooting problem makes the process more entertaining.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of the choice stages are this way, even if you think that there really is no choice and you decide to shoot it all pistol, that is still a choice. If the stage design seems to force you into a certain choice how is that any worse than giving you NO choice? I think that more choice is better, even if on it's surface it does not seem that anyone would exercise the choice. The creative solution to the shooting problem is the part I like, and why I like 3 gun more than any single gun sport. More possible ways to solve the shooting problem makes the process more entertaining.

It's worse than giving me no choice in that I might as well leave my shotgun at home, because I'm not going to choose to reload it. And I really like shooting my shotgun. I don't like it more than finishing as well as I can, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of the choice stages are this way, even if you think that there really is no choice and you decide to shoot it all pistol, that is still a choice. If the stage design seems to force you into a certain choice how is that any worse than giving you NO choice? I think that more choice is better, even if on it's surface it does not seem that anyone would exercise the choice. The creative solution to the shooting problem is the part I like, and why I like 3 gun more than any single gun sport. More possible ways to solve the shooting problem makes the process more entertaining.

It's worse than giving me no choice in that I might as well leave my shotgun at home, because I'm not going to choose to reload it. And I really like shooting my shotgun. I don't like it more than finishing as well as I can, though.
Exactly! If we all had 20rd shotguns then we wouldn't drawing Mr. Pistol very much. Edited by Jesse Tischauser
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We run a unique option stage frequently. My pal Jomar likes to set up mindbender stages. These are great 3 gun thinking stages where you have limited rounds. Usually 12 rounds per gun. There are fewer targets than ammo. So you cant burn 2 rounds on pistols and rifle paper. You also ned to select doubles with the shotgun. Of course the doubles are there for the taking as lone as you are looking for them. This would not make for a good major match stage but it is a hell of a training stge for a local match.

jay

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jessie, then shoot open! Gear selection, and what division you are shooting does come into play. I am a limited guy, and think that TAC optics is silly, but on stage 1 I borrowed Smittys open rifle for the bonus shot so I could use his bipod, (I did use his swaro too, but it hurt my eye). Choices make the game more fun. It is short sighted and selfish to say that just because you have or do not have a particular piece of gear, or that you prefer to shoot one gun more than another, or that you can't load your shotgun fast enough that you should dictate how someone else is allowed to shoot a stage. If the rules of your division allow you to use a shotgun with unlimited capacity then why should I not be allowed to use it?

Austin, your problem is that you don't like the stages as they are designed, not that the designer has given you a choice. If you choose to use your pistol instead of your shotgun because you feel that you will do better then you have done exactly what the stage designer intended, choose the right tool for the job for you. The option is not what is causing you to select pistol all the time, poorly designed or balanced stages are. Don't toss the option for the sins of the stage designer, when used properly options open up multiple ways to shoot a stage, not pigeonhole you into shooting just like everyone else. I want to move away from standing in box A engaging targets with gun B, I like freedom baby YEAH!

For a heaping spoonful of choice, try shooting the Ironman in trooper, it will change the way you look at our sport.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stlhead, For all intents and purposes you gotta discuss this sort of thing and really any stage desgin stuff in terms of Tac Optics because that is where 90% of shooters live. At CT we are essentially shooting trooper meaning bring and/or borrow anything you can think of. I make decisions in the dark at that match that I would never make in a regular match. One of which is not letting Keith Garcia stand behind me.

You are correct though in that having options is not what we are against. What Austin and I are tired of is MD's that don't know how to properly setup a stage with optional targets and we suffer shooting a 3-gun match with all pistol because that's the fastest way to shoot a stage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be fair though, there's really not a good or easy way to set up optional targets in such a way that Jesse and I are going to use shotguns instead of pistols. Basically, it's gonna involve hi brass loads, and those aren't my favorite either.

I really do like hosing steel with a shotgun, but there are very few instances where I'm going to be able to do that if the targets are pistol/shotgun optional. And you can't make it too difficult to force people one way or another, or you're going to screw the new guy that can't do the technical stuff with a shotgun or pistol yet.

Basically, I want to shoot a normal 3 gun match. Optional targets change 3 gun into 2.15 gun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am shocked that 90% of the shooters you encounter are not able to experience the true joy of shooting. I only wish that those who have yet to spend any quality time shooting like gentlemen would take a season to experience what 3 gun can really be. Tac optics is an abomination, same pistol, same shotgun, but half assed open rifle, come on, if you need magnification then just shoot open and admit your addiction.

I am fortunate that in the matches I have shot this year have all been really good, no pistol overload for me, if I had been forced to suck a bunch of pistol I might feel differently. Again, nobody makes you shoot the matches, you can always choose to shoot elsewhere.

Now, I need to get back to the ear muff argument going on next door. I heard they would be serving cookies!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...