Saw some silly stuff at the pro am today

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I'm really confused as well! You and I are walking down the street, you are typing a reply on Brian Enos and don't notice that you are about to step into an open manhole. Do I stop you, or do I say to myself he is a big boy and should know better, and let you fall and sustain serious injuries which preclude you from shooting again? I can see that you are real big on self determination, so I'll send you flowers in the hospital.

The real question is...if you warn him BEFORE he falls in the manhole, will you be arrested for coaching???

Only if you are whispering "left, left, left" loud enough where the shooter can hit it, but hopefully light enough that the RO cant.

I have to agree with Kurt tho......safety isn't an area where we yell "big boy rules"

[Dan Sierpina]

I'm really confused as well! You and I are walking down the street, you are typing a reply on Brian Enos and don't notice that you are about to step into an open manhole. Do I stop you, or do I say to myself he is a big boy and should know better, and let you fall and sustain serious injuries which preclude you from shooting again? I can see that you are real big on self determination, so I'll send you flowers in the hospital.

Kurt,

In the real world, I think the person that has their face glued to their phone will see the manhole. Since they are looking downward, they see only the screen and the sidewalk just in front of them. Now, I'd let them fall into the manhole and have them learn a lesson that their professors can't teach them.

*Disclaimer* I work at a university in a major east coast metropolitan area. Some people are dumber than fence posts, even if they have PHD after their names.

[wgj3]

I'm really confused as well! You and I are walking down the street, you are typing a reply on Brian Enos and don't notice that you are about to step into an open manhole. Do I stop you, or do I say to myself he is a big boy and should know better, and let you fall and sustain serious injuries which preclude you from shooting again? I can see that you are real big on self determination, so I'll send you flowers in the hospital.

Doesn't seem like a very fair comparison to me. I agreed that the shooter shouldnt be allowed to shoot without properly deployed eye and ear protection. But, my gear not working (staying in place) is nobody's problem but mine. If i can't stay safe, I just forfeited my opportunity to finish that stage or maybe even the match.

PS- Kurt DQ'd me TWICE in a single match a few years back. I earned both. I learned from both. It was my first big match. Didn't keep me from coming back.

What if my shoe comes off in the middle of a stage? It would be terrible to let a shooter step on a sharp rock or recently trimmed down tree and impale his foot...

I guess I just don't get the reshoot aspect. I watched a shooter start Pro#4 without eye protection. Lots of close steel. Not safe. I pointed it out to one of the RM's and he stopped the shooter and gave him a reshoot. I didnt have a huge problem with that one because I didnt think the shooter should have ever been started without his eye pro in place.

[OPENB]

How do you get DQ'd twice in the same match?

[OPENB]

A little twist, interested in opinions. I was shooting AM stage with the three cars. I got to the rifle targets through the window of the second car, and heard a fizzle sound, not a pop like a primer, so I clear the round and begin to continue the stage. RO stopped me for suspicion of a squib. Picked up the round, and found the primer had been seated sideways, and fizzled when struck by the firing pin. Since I was stopped by the RO and there was no bullet in the bore, I was given a reshoot. The ammo issue was clearly mine, so do the "big boy rules" guys think it should have been a reshoot, or scored as shot? I doubt there is a direct answer to this in the Pro/Am rules as published. We relied on outstanding USPSA rules or past practice to grant the reshoot.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

A little twist, interested in opinions. I was shooting AM stage with the three cars. I got to the rifle targets through the window of the second car, and heard a fizzle sound, not a pop like a primer, so I clear the round and begin to continue the stage. RO stopped me for suspicion of a squib. Picked up the round, and found the primer had been seated sideways, and fizzled when struck by the firing pin. Since I was stopped by the RO and there was no bullet in the bore, I was given a reshoot. The ammo issue was clearly mine, so do the "big boy rules" guys think it should have been a reshoot, or scored as shot? I doubt there is a direct answer to this in the Pro/Am rules as published. We relied on outstanding USPSA rules or past practice to grant the reshoot.

The RO stopped you, as he should IMO, and if the RO stopped your progress in the stage you should get a reshoot.

I shot the Pro side and the RO did not stop me when there was a range malfunction. A paper target fell, I paused long enough to say "what the _______" and started shooting when I realized he wasn't stopping me, sending 5 rds at a target laying on its side on the ground before engaging the last 4 targets. I was given the target on the ground and not given the reshoot since I kept shooting. If I would have stood there and demanded a reshoot, I would have likely received it after the discussion with the RM when politely arguing getting a reshoot. On the flip side, if I stop shooting, demand a reshoot and don't get it....I get 60 seconds in FTE's on that stage.

IMO.....when the RO stops the progress of the stage for anything other than a DQ, it should be grounds for a reshoot. If I have a squib, and I notice it, I should be allowed to safely abandon it in a dump barrel and continue with shotgun/rifle and accept my FTE's. If the RO will not allow me to continue, regardless if the squib exists or not, then I think you should be allowed a reshoot instead of being forced to eat FTE's on the other two guns.

[kurtm]

Prime example of ragged edge match production, avoid re-shoots at all costs because of time. I didn't go, but by chance did this match run behind a little bit?

Now for more fun for the big boy crowd as there seem to be two issues running concurrently. Someone mentioned hard to knock down poppers, and since they we're big boys they always brought "heavy ammo". Can we now assume that there is no need to ever calibrate a popper ever again because as a big boy you should have known to use powerful enough ammo. Hey it fell to full power 308... no one told you to bring a weak 223 round, you should have known......what a wonderful new way to put on a match.

[Neomet]

Hans arrives at stage 3 with the popper calibrator.

[wgj3]

The Pro match actually seemed to be running ahead of schedule for our squad. We spent a good deal of time waiting between stages, but Im fairly certain that we started most stages early and the others on time.

It seems to me that the perception is that reshoots should be avoided to keep people from gaming for reshoots when they botch a stage.

I also watched a shooter have a target fall during their run on Pro#2, shooter paused, RO did nothing, so shooter continued on with the stage and did not get "offered" a reshoot.

I don't think that matches should stop calibrating targets, but I also know for a fact that targets are not always the same for every shooter. Ground under targets change, holes for plate stands change, mechanism for steel targets can even begin rusting enough overnight to make them behave differently the next morning. The reshoot gods are generally not kind and benevolent to me, so I try to avoid them. Larues fall better to marginal hits with heavier bullets. Big poppers fall better with heavier rounds. I'm not advocating for no calibration, but I dont think that we should ask matches to calibrate targets with a .22LR either. However, I personally felt that most of the steel in the Pro match would have fallen to a .22. The original issue was calibrating "optional" pistol/shotgun steel with the shotgun instead of the pistol. I see no problem with that as long as its the same for everyone.

[bigbrowndog]

a lot of the "target down fire a round at it and keep moving" has taken place over the last 10 years. I cannot recall where it started, IMGA for sure but SMM3G or RM3G???? it seems to have now been pushed to the extreme limit of, "if anything goes wrong, just keep shooting and we'll discuss it at the end of the stage" I'm sorry but thats WRONG!! (capital for emphasis not yelling). If a stage is having issues with targets not staying up and properly positioned for shooters then its the stage RO, RM, MD's problem to deal with not the shooters.

The shooter should always receive the benefit of the doubt, that they are acting in good faith to be good sportsman. As KN3 stated earlier, yes there are some folks that don't play like good sportsman. Those people should #1 be DQ'd when they do it, #2 not allowed to play at that match ever again, #3 their names shared with all the other MD's so they can be kept an eye on, (MHO)

I know that I have never accepted and application from anyone that I did not trust to shoot my match and behave as a true good sportsman. If they earned a reputation as being anything but good sportsman, I don't want them at my match.

Trapr

[MarkCO]

but I also know for a fact that targets are not always the same for every shooter. Ground under targets change, holes for plate stands change, mechanism for steel targets can even begin rusting enough overnight to make them behave differently the next morning. The reshoot gods are generally not kind and benevolent to me, so I try to avoid them.

You know that for a fact only at a match with a RM who does not do their job! Targets must be checked and if they have issues, don't use them. I have found that consistent calibration of poppers at our range (sans wind) means a piece of plywood underneath, and so that is what we do at majors. They get shot after set up, any time there is a challenge, and again each morning. We did have a shooter with a re-shoot due to a popper, largely wind related, at the Noveske match, but about 10 challenges where the shooter ended up with an unhit target. 122PF 9mm regardless of if it was shot with pistol or shotgun.

Reshoots in 3Gun, at least for good competitors, almost always result in a better score. There are a few "pro" and a few local shooters I keep an eye on because I have personally see them act in an inappropriate manner in the past to get a reshoot after they made a major mistake or had gun issues. I look at reshoots that are not warranted as a penalty for every other shooter in the match. But they are going to happen as long as humans are involved and I don't much like video games. If the course equipment or staff causes the shooter to not be able to have a fair and equal chance at the course of fire, like Trapr said, the shooter gets the benefit and the reshoot.

[Paul-the new guy]

Mark sounds like you run the kind of match I want to shoot!

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Mark sounds like you run the kind of match I want to shoot!

He does! The Noveske match last year was exceptional in design and admin.

[atomicferret]

Yep, it is no different than telling someone to watch their muzzle or finger.

I have always just told the competitor to fix their gear and get back to shooting.

I think way to many people think reshoots should be given out way to generously. your gear, whether it be mag pouches, ear protection, scope switchviews, etc, is your responsibility. It is on you to deal with it on the clock.

It has also been my experience that most issues with ear pro occur between arrays when the competitior is navigating some kind of obstical, not while they are actively shooting. ymmv

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Yep, it is no different than telling someone to watch their muzzle or finger.

I have always just told the competitor to fix their gear and get back to shooting.

I think way to many people think reshoots should be given out way to generously. your gear, whether it be mag pouches, ear protection, scope switchviews, etc, is your responsibility. It is on you to deal with it on the clock.

It has also been my experience that most issues with ear pro occur between arrays when the competitior is navigating some kind of obstical, not while they are actively shooting. ymmv

If you are MD/RM and your RO stops a shooter because their hearing protection came off....because that shooter was trained in multiple disciplines and out of habit stopped the shooter. Do you give a reshoot, or does the shooter get their time plus all the FTE's/FTN's?

If I'm the RO, and I've been briefed not to stop the shooter except for 180 violations, shooting targets too close with the wrong ammo,...but NOT to stop them when their hearing protection comes off, I will do as instructed as much as I can. If I do stop the shooter, IMO, they get a reshoot because I stopped their stage progress.

As a competitor, you need to know the match you are visiting for these things as well. I know full well that if I attend a Horner match, it's all on me and if I drop a safe gun or ear pro on the ground the RO is likely to look at me and say "clocks runnin." This is an area where everyone's match booklet may get one paragraph thicker in the future.

[LoganbillJ]

Our rule book got one paragraph longer yesterday for this exact reason.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Our rule book got one paragraph longer yesterday for this exact reason.

As it should.....as long as it's in the rule book, end of discussion.

[BigLucky]

1st on a handgun or rifle stage. A competitor shooting handgun shoots a popper and you can clearly see the hit is in the calibration zone. He calls for calibration. RO says he will call but range master is going to shoot it from the closest point with a shotgun. Shooter insists and rm shows up with the shotgun and blasts over the popper... If you can use either firearm in my mind calibration should be with the lightest weapon ...

2) shooter running up hill slips and falls knocking off his hearing protection. RO does not stop him an he continues the stage. At a ULSC he asks for a reshoot. Again they call rm who says since he continued he accepted the fact that hearing protection was not in place and no reshoot...

Clearly this isn't uspsa but it seems like both of these decisions should have been handled differently.

I am guessing that the first one was on stage 3, since had all the "option poppers".. It was a bad stage design. There was no option that included shooting any of those poppers as close to the popper as you could get it with a shotgun. If they calibrated with a shotgun as close as you can get to the target, then that is stupid. If he calibrated it with a shotgun at the dump barrel and it went over, then that would be acceptable. With all the option target ridiculousness the RM really should do the calibration with the gun that the competitor called for a calibration with (pistol or shotgun) because the majority of "option" targets are not an "option" at all. The RM at that match also refused to give a reshoot to a shooter on that same stage that had a paper target blow off the stand in the middle of his run... It is a hard job, but bad calls are bad calls.

On the hearing protection thing.. the shooter was bone head, no reshoot was the right call. If I lose my ear pro, unless it is an all shotgun stage, I am going to stop right there and fix that problem.. I would rather hear my baby's first words than maybe win a stage....

[MarkCO]

And that is why Kurt, there are some matches just better left "unattended".

[EaZeNuTZ33]

1st on a handgun or rifle stage. A competitor shooting handgun shoots a popper and you can clearly see the hit is in the calibration zone. He calls for calibration. RO says he will call but range master is going to shoot it from the closest point with a shotgun. Shooter insists and rm shows up with the shotgun and blasts over the popper... If you can use either firearm in my mind calibration should be with the lightest weapon ...

2) shooter running up hill slips and falls knocking off his hearing protection. RO does not stop him an he continues the stage. At a ULSC he asks for a reshoot. Again they call rm who says since he continued he accepted the fact that hearing protection was not in place and no reshoot...

Clearly this isn't uspsa but it seems like both of these decisions should have been handled differently.

I am guessing that the first one was on stage 3, since had all the "option poppers".. It was a bad stage design. There was no option that included shooting any of those poppers as close to the popper as you could get it with a shotgun. If they calibrated with a shotgun as close as you can get to the target, then that is stupid. If he calibrated it with a shotgun at the dump barrel and it went over, then that would be acceptable. With all the option target ridiculousness the RM really should do the calibration with the gun that the competitor called for a calibration with (pistol or shotgun) because the majority of "option" targets are not an "option" at all. The RM at that match also refused to give a reshoot to a shooter on that same stage that had a paper target blow off the stand in the middle of his run... It is a hard job, but bad calls are bad calls.

On the hearing protection thing.. the shooter was bone head, no reshoot was the right call. If I lose my ear pro, unless it is an all shotgun stage, I am going to stop right there and fix that problem.. I would rather hear my baby's first words than maybe win a stage....

Hear Pro molded me some plugs there....I doubt they will be falling out in a stage, or off like my electronic muffs have in the past. Just an option there.

[dogtired]

I think losing control of your firearm is the point. I just looked up the USPSA rule:

5.3.4 A competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided the competitor maintains constant physical contact with the firearm, until it is placed firmly and in a safe direction, securely on the ground or another stable object, and remains within 1 yard of the firearm at all times.

As far as steel calibration: "all steel must fall" should cover that, unless of course some mechanical factor keeps it from falling.

I agree with USPSA safety rules regarding eye or ear pro. No exceptions. Reshoots don't cost anything. There is RO discretion regarding "gaming", rules or no rules.

Edited September 30, 2014 by dogtired