Saw some silly stuff at the pro am today

[Bryan 45]

You're right Jesse, and as a shooter, I'd take a STAGE ZERO any day over loosing my hearing or an eye because I lost my protection.

[dcloudy777]

I haven't seen anyone here say that a shooter should "man up" and continue shooting without eye or ear protection. Quite the opposite in fact.

What several people here, myself included, have said that your eye/ear pro is just like any other part of your gear. If it breaks of comes off, your match just took a serious hit... to get a "do-over" because your gear failed isn't fair... not even a little bit.

Your eye and ear pro are the only part of your personal equipment that is also required to not damage your person. If your mag falls out of a pouch or your scope mount comes loose you're not in danger of losing your hearing or vision.

Just because it's important doesn't mean you should face no penalty for you failing to use it properly. Getting a free re-shoot because your gear failed is total BS.

Edited August 25, 2014 by dcloudy777

[Vlad]

How about getting a re-shoot because the trees along the path in the woods for the stage are not exactly trimmed for 6+ ft people and snag your ear protection? Is the answer that must tie them to my head?

This isn't a hypothetical, its something that happen to me many years ago. Mind you, I fixed my gear and kept going while ducking vegetation, but I wouldn't really call that a gear failure.

[dcloudy777]

How about getting a re-shoot because the trees along the path in the woods for the stage are not exactly trimmed for 6+ ft people and snag your ear protection? Is the answer that must tie them to my head?

This isn't a hypothetical, its something that happen to me many years ago. Mind you, I fixed my gear and kept going while ducking vegetation, but I wouldn't really call that a gear failure.

It's absolutely a gear failure, provided the vegetation didn't grow or get lower between your walk-through and your run.

[seanc]

Screw that where do you set your gun when you go to pick up your muffs? Hold it between your legs? Hand it to the RO? If my safety gear goes down during a stage in stopping immediately. It's a safety thing guys quit trying to badasses.

Agree 100%.

[Stlhead]

Alma, fortunately for you I happen to be the president of the tough talking c class shooters club. Also known as TTCSC, (pronounced "titsee"). If you would like to petition for membership I can arrange it, but you would have to hold a c card in at least one USPSA division, or better yet not be classified at all. You would be required to shoot 3 gun matches, RO them, design stages, and be able to prove that you are not an ass hat. No need to send your money in now, we can settle up if you are able to meet the requirements for club admission.

I would also very much like a babysitter, many a brilliant adult films as well as erotic fiction stories have been written about just such a scenario.

I still can't believe that this discussion has drug on so long. If not for the opportunity to plug my favorite shooting club there is no way I would have posted agin. (unless provoked into posting another childish response to an equally childish post)

HAIL TTCSC!

[Paul-the new guy]

If you're going to do the ridiculous optional target thing you gotta calibrate steal with the gun that has the least likelihood of knocking the target down at the closest possible location to it. You can't expect shooters to guess which gun will knock it over.

We don't calibrate pistol steal with a .45 when the minimum allowable caliber is a 9mm.

THIS

Several of the stage briefs also allowed paper and steel to be engaged with pistol or rifle. But did anyone engage the 200 yard flashers with pistol? BJ Norris didn't, and he's probably one of the few that actually has the skill to be able to hit them with a handgun. Optional shotgun/pistol steel are no different- use the right tool. Just because the stage brief says you can, doesn't mean you should.

If your rifle went down and you didn't engage them then you missed a great way to avoid FTE's Most of them are not falling targets and they very well could move if you hit them so no calibration needed... Define right tool... poppers at 30 yards or so are often shot with pistol so why would a shot gun be the "right tool"

[seanc]

what if the RO's hearing protection gets knocked off chasing the shooter through the woods, and falls on the ground while shooter is blasting?

Does RO just take the abuse of a comp'd AR going off a few feet away, can he stop the shooter?

[dcloudy777]

what if the RO's hearing protection gets knocked off chasing the shooter through the woods, and falls on the ground while shooter is blasting?

Does RO just take the abuse of a comp'd AR going off a few feet away, can he stop the shooter?

The RO is "range equipment", as far as I'm concerned. A range equipment failure gets a competitor a reshoot.

[Jesse Tischauser]

How about getting a re-shoot because the trees along the path in the woods for the stage are not exactly trimmed for 6+ ft people and snag your ear protection? Is the answer that must tie them to my head?

This isn't a hypothetical, its something that happen to me many years ago. Mind you, I fixed my gear and kept going while ducking vegetation, but I wouldn't really call that a gear failure.

It's absolutely a gear failure, provided the vegetation didn't grow or get lower between your walk-through and your run.

Here is a hypothetical situation. You trip over a root in the woods as we've all seen happen. You hit the ground hard trying not to sweep the squad behind you. When you hit the ground your muffs fall off and go flying into the underbrush and you can't find them. On top of that you break your Glasses.

Stage DQ for not having ear pro/glasses or reshoot?

[Jesse Tischauser]

what if the RO's hearing protection gets knocked off chasing the shooter through the woods, and falls on the ground while shooter is blasting?

Does RO just take the abuse of a comp'd AR going off a few feet away, can he stop the shooter?

Match DQ for him too for being unsafe and having bad gear. Edited August 25, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[P.E. Kelley]

How about getting a re-shoot because the trees along the path in the woods for the stage are not exactly trimmed for 6+ ft people and snag your ear protection? Is the answer that must tie them to my head?

This isn't a hypothetical, its something that happen to me many years ago. Mind you, I fixed my gear and kept going while ducking vegetation, but I wouldn't really call that a gear failure.

It's absolutely a gear failure, provided the vegetation didn't grow or get lower between your walk-through and your run.

Here is a hypothetical situation. You trip over a root in the woods as we've all seen happen. You hit the ground hard trying not to sweep the squad behind you. When you hit the ground your muffs fall off and go flying into the underbrush and you can't find them. On top of that you break your Glasses.

Stage DQ for not having ear pro/glasses or reshoot?

No sir, scored as shot to that point

[Vlad]

It's absolutely a gear failure, provided the vegetation didn't grow or get lower between your walk-through and your run.

Actually, I think it is a stage design failure, but that is a different conversation.

I should clarify something. As a shooter, I don't care about this, I'll shoot under almost any rules.

I care about this as an RO. Here is the scenario that concerns me: Shooter runs around and his visible ear pro comes off. Shooter does not indicate he has noticed and he is setting up for rifle shot. There are two possible scenario's here. The shooter has plugs and all is fine or the shooter does not and he either doesn't care or doesn't know he has lost his ear protection, but as an RO I can't tell if he has plugs or not. What do you do as an RO?

According to this thread, I let the shooter shoot and then DQ him, or I start asking him questions without stopping him. I find both options unacceptable. If I allow him to shoot and he doesn't have ear protection, through my inaction I have allowed a shooter to be injured. That is simply not acceptable for an RO, and dare I say a decent human being? DQ'ing after that is just adding insult to literal injury, an injury I could have prevented. If he turns out to have had plugs and I distract him asking him about it without offering him a reshoot, I may have ruined his match or altered his order of finish. No reshoot for him, so my interference has directly affected his match. I don't find that acceptable either, to say nothing of the possibility of abuse by a cheating RO. That never happens, right?

The only reasonable option to me, wearing RO clown shoes, is to STOP the shooter before he hurts himself. If he has plugs, I will apologize and he gets to re-shoot the stage. If he doesn't, then I just saved his hearing. You can say that at that point the shooter gets whatever score he has, or a stage DQ or a match DQ, but if you go down that path you inviting shooters to do other possibly unsafe gymnastics to restore their hearing pro if they notice it. I find that to be a poor choice as well.

And for what? SO we can say its his problem?

Edited August 25, 2014 by Vlad

[Paul-the new guy]

Vlad stopping the shooter would be the right call in my non he man world. In the heat of competition people do stupid things before thinking about the end result. The rule in USPSA was put there to protect people from themselves. It gives you the shooter an out so you don't have to be all he man like some of these guys.

[GeorgeD]

1st on a handgun or rifle stage. A competitor shooting handgun shoots a popper and you can clearly see the hit is in the calibration zone. He calls for calibration. RO says he will call but range master is going to shoot it from the closest point with a shotgun. Shooter insists and rm shows up with the shotgun and blasts over the popper... If you can use either firearm in my mind calibration should be with the lightest weapon ...

Clearly this isn't uspsa but it seems like both of these decisions should have been handled differently.

This happened to me on stage 1 thunder. I used my pistol,to shoot the last four poppers. I had TWO pistol hits on a popper that did not fall, verified today after watching my gopro footage of the stage.

I shoot a 9mm for 3 gun. 130 pf ammo, the same I use for shooting minor in USPSA. I asked for calibration and was told the same thing, a shotgun from the closest possible spot. I then declined the calibration and took the miss.

I agree with Jesse, if it can be shot with pistol, it should calibrated with pistol.

As far as ear and eye pro, you should not be allowed to continue without it. It is taught to us by every RO, hunter education class, etc., when you shoot you need it, 3 gun should not be an exception.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I still had a great time shooting with my buddies, and making some new ones.

George

[seanc]

what if the RO's hearing protection gets knocked off chasing the shooter through the woods, and falls on the ground while shooter is blasting?

Does RO just take the abuse of a comp'd AR going off a few feet away, can he stop the shooter?

Match DQ for him too for being unsafe and having bad gear.

Big boy rules.

[fireman489]

Im just here for the comments...

[Doug H.]

As far as ear and eye pro, you should not be allowed to continue without it. It is taught to us by every RO, hunter education class, etc., when you shoot you need it, 3 gun should not be an exception.

I agree, you should not be allowed to continue, but I don't agree you get a reshoot. Not giving reshoots cuts down on the weasel factor. It's amazing how often eye and ear protection can get dislodged when a stage is going bad, not saying cheating, but it happens and who's to say that it was intentional? As posted above, big boy rules, reset your gear and shoot on! If you don't like the rules don't shoot the match.

Doug

[toothandnail]

I agree, you should not be allowed to continue, but I don't agree you get a reshoot. Not giving reshoots cuts down on the weasel factor. It's amazing how often eye and ear protection can get dislodged when a stage is going bad, not saying cheating, but it happens and who's to say that it was intentional? As posted above, big boy rules, reset your gear and shoot on! If you don't like the rules don't shoot the match.

Doug

Interesting point, we talked about yesterday.

Years back when we started our race track, the practice was.

If there was a spin-out / crash in the first turn out of the holeshot , the race was stopped, lined up again then restarted.

As you can imagine, quit often, if somebody thought they got a bad start, just drive off the first corner, spin-out in the grass.

Automatic restart.

We changed the rule at our track to 1/2 the class involved in the first turn accident before a restart.

Guess what, restarts went from 2-3 restarts per class , to 2-3 restarts in years of racing.

Also fewer first turn accidents overall.

Now back to the bickering

[Bryan 45]

Doug and others before make a great point about accidental ear pro issues. It's really easy to accidentally on purpose dislodge a pair of muffs when shouldering a rifle or shotgun. Perhaps we need to prohibit over the ear muffs? Or is it better to make competitors responsible for their own equipment choices.

And Paul, as far as the 30 yard popper that can be engaged with a pistol, I always check out the failing steel to see how heavy it is set, whether it's a shotgun, pistol, or optional stage. That's what dictates the right tool for the job, not what is necessarily fastest to shoot.

[Benelli Chick]

Okay, I've been waiting to comment.

So, I’ve been listening to the rules discussion and thinking hard. I believe that one of the reasons USPSA has such a long rule set is to deal with all these range lawyers, and, yes, to avoid liability. If they think of every possible thing that can go wrong, can be done wrong, etc. they can answer any lawsuit – “we thought of that, and this was our plan.”

I understand the mindset.

With the ear pro – Was it a tree branch the shooter have seen on the walk through? Was it the same tree branch, but it just rained and the rain moved it down and it sags much lower and wasn’t that far down on the walk through? Was it the shooter falling in newly created mud, they stayed safe, but hearing protection got knocked off? Did they knock it off on purpose to get a reshoot? Did they RO knock it off by mistake? Did the RO knock it off on purpose? In my judgement, some of these situations deserve different responses.

I was a middle school teacher. For a while, we went through this "great" thing called “assertive discipline.” As a teacher, I was supposed to list the rules (covering almost everything they could do wrong) and list the consequences for breaking each of the rules. Some of the rules had check-offs with one warning, then call parents, then…whatever. Some were immediate - to the office!

Why do I think that was not a good plan? First, it just gave some kids more ideas of bad things to do. Second, each occurrence needed to be dealt with the same way, no matter the motivation or the person. One kid not bringing his notebook for the 3rd time because he doesn't care, is different than the kid not bringing it for the 3rd time because his parents had a fight and his dad drove off with the notebook in the car, which is different than the kid who can't find his butt most days and this is the 3rd time this month, but for the last two weeks, he remembered it EVERY day!

You remember “zero tolerance.” I think we can all agree that elementary kids shouldn’t have knives in school. Big trouble. But what about that plastic butter knife to spread cream cheese that a mom put in a sack lunch that ended up getting a kid expelled because it was a knife in school??

That’s what bothers me about rules that cover everything…there is no room for common sense.

As far as safety rules, the RO has a split second to make a decision. He can’t pause and run through the rules. Yes, he should know them, but for those very thorough USPSA rules…no one can memorize them and all their parts. Even when you take the test, you’re allowed to look it all up in the book!

The RO has to make sure everyone is safe. It’s a split second judgment call.

Our policy at RM3G is that if your equipment falls off, then you need to take care of it on the clock. But at the world match, one of our new RO’s – who is absolutely awesome, knew that policy. (Dumping belts on purpose is a procedural.) But, when the Russian had his belt with empty pistol in it fall off (or start to) while he had his shotgun…he would normally tell him to put the shotgun down and fix the problem. But, he stopped the shooter and gave him a reshoot because he couldn’t explain what he wanted quickly…the Russian didn’t speak English well, and he was flailing with shotgun and belt. It was an unsafe situation. He stopped him, then called me to apologize. I said no apology needed. He did what he needed to do to keep everyone safe. But, if we had a rule(not a policy)…(I admit, when we wrote the rules, we didn’t consider shooters who didn’t speak English.) technically, the Russian wouldn't have been able to reshoot, or the RO would've had to let him continue in a possibly unsafe manner that he couldn't rectify with direct instruction. Situations will arise that aren’t covered in the rules…even USPSA’s! You have to have RO’s that know your rules as they are and the concept behind them, but they have to do what they have to do in a split second to keep things safe!

Sometimes, they may not make the right decision or a decision you agree with. But, if they are working for me, I assume they make the best decision they can at the time!

If you have time to consider whether you want to continue without your ear pro, or put them back on…whether you will get a reshoot or not, you should have time to put them back on.

Yep, they could’ve fallen off the bridge at Fallen Brethren with the snakes in the water under it, and then it’s a whole new game. Do you really want rules like…If the shooters hear pro falls off during the course of fire, they should put them on and finish the stage…unless the hear pro falls into over 1 ft of water with dangerous animals, (a puddle would not be irretrievable) or gets blown away and then taken away by a hawk, or is stepped on by the RO and broken, or…well, you get the point!

If you need the rules written in excessive detail, so you know where you can push your luck and how best to fix any FU’s you make, then you need to go to only USPSA matches with the rule book that tries to cover every possible situation. Most of the “outlaw” 3-Gun matches try to apply more common sense and don’t want to spend our time making up rules that cover EVERY POSSIBLE scenario, and waste your time by reading a bunch of rules that will never be applied to you and the vicious water snakes…oh by the way, not making up the water moccasins in the creek under the bridge at “Fallen Brethren.”

JJ says - the moral of the story is...don't JUST wear muffs(without double plugging!)!!! And cut those $%&'ing strings off!!

By the way, this year at the World's we had a shooter that MAY have pulled out his ear pro a couple times. No proof. We just watched. Another stage not going well, hand creeping up, RO said "don't do it." Hand went back to shooting! Problem solved. (Solution not in the rule book.)

Done venting!

Denise

Edited August 26, 2014 by Benelli Chick

[toothandnail]

Excellent points,

end of thread

[Paul-the new guy]

Nope not end of thread...

Bryan do you check between every shooter or just before you shoot or at the walk through? Poppers change as they settle and fall and the adjustment backs out and even how they are reset. That is the point of being able to call for a calibration. By the way common sense isn't all that common and by looking at this thread what some may think is common sense others think is silly.

[CraigS.]

That's a great point Paul about poppers going out of adjustment

Still unsure why the match director used a shotgun to check calibration when the shooter used a pistol

Common sense should dictate that the target be checked with the type of firearm that was used by the shooter

And if a 9mm factory round won't make the target fall you should not be able too say its a pistol option target.

[alma]

Some people's common sense better than others. It certainly differs. That is why you decide ahead of time on how things should be handled so ROs aren't reacting to unanticipated events and making up the responses ad they go along.

Many who are responding to this thread have the MD hat on whereas I am taking the view of a competitor who would like to be protected from inequity caused by overzealous rules interpretation or whatever you call the opposite of that. I just want consistency, fairness, and firmly established expectations.