Saw some silly stuff at the pro am today

[Paul-the new guy]

1st on a handgun or rifle stage. A competitor shooting handgun shoots a popper and you can clearly see the hit is in the calibration zone. He calls for calibration. RO says he will call but range master is going to shoot it from the closest point with a shotgun. Shooter insists and rm shows up with the shotgun and blasts over the popper... If you can use either firearm in my mind calibration should be with the lightest weapon ...

2) shooter running up hill slips and falls knocking off his hearing protection. RO does not stop him an he continues the stage. At a ULSC he asks for a reshoot. Again they call rm who says since he continued he accepted the fact that hearing protection was not in place and no reshoot...

Clearly this isn't uspsa but it seems like both of these decisions should have been handled differently.

[JPeel]

I am with you on the calibration issue.

[B45C22]

I have always thought that the 3-gunners who love 3-gun because "we ain't go no inch thick rule book" are in for a rude awakening. The rule book is there for a reason. Those rules are needed to make sure that everybody gets a fair shake. The rule book is coming my friends.......

[Vlad]

I have always thought that the 3-gunners who love 3-gun because "we ain't go no inch thick rule book" are in for a rude awakening.

Because they haven't been shooting this way with thin rule books for 30 years? That's a long nap.

I think the (2) issue is bad RO'ing and that can happen regardless of rulebooks. Issue (1) .. well I wasn't there and frankly I'm kinda ok with the notion of having the option to use your handgun but being a significant advantage to using your shotgun. Its called planning and gaming the stage.

[Doug H.]

I'm not sure why people think they deserve a reshoot because they knocked off their own hearing protection. If it's not in the rules of the match like in USPSA, then put your hearing protection back on and keep shooting.

Doug

[toothandnail]

1. It's called Risk/ Reward, on an option stage, the SHOOTER, determines what they will shoot and from where.

He took the risk and it was a BAD decision. He shoulda checked the target to see how hard it falls.

Nope, it's not in the rules

2. Same deal, the SHOOTER, removed /knocked off his ears, the SHOOTER, decided to continue.

At the end he thought "I could do better on a reshoot" .

Nope, it's not in the rules

See how easy that is. No range laywer needed

Edited August 23, 2014 by toothandnail

[Sarge]

1. It's called Risk/ Reward, on an option stage, the SHOOTER, determines what they will shoot and from where.

He took the risk and it was a BAD decision. He shoulda checked the target to see how hard it falls.

Nope, it's not in the rules

2. Same deal, the SHOOTER, removed /knocked off his ears, the SHOOTER, decided to continue.

At the end he thought "I could do better on a reshoot" .

Nope, it's not in the rules

See how easy that is. No range laywer needed

That makes sense. No rules certainly does away with rules debates!

[Vlad]

To me the hearing thing is a safety issue. Permanent hearing damage is not a heck of a lot better then any other sort of a permanent injury, and this is supposed to be a fun game. I rather the shooter not injure itself in the name of "competition" so as an RO I rather give him a second chance at the stage as soon as it happens, then let them go deaf early.

This is supposed to be a game, lets not let people get hurt and say well tough noogies, choose between a good run and your hearing loss.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Vlad

[Jadeslade]

I'm not sure why people think they deserve a reshoot because they knocked off their own hearing protection. If it's not in the rules of the match like in USPSA, then put your hearing protection back on and keep shooting.

Doug

Yes. He should have stopped right away. And for those who say just go ahead, you've never lost your ear pro in a shoot house . It's a good rule in IPSC and should be in 3 Gun. It's a safety issue. Ear Pro come off or out. Stop, reshoot.

[Jadeslade]

I have always thought that the 3-gunners who love 3-gun because "we ain't go no inch thick rule book" are in for a rude awakening. The rule book is there for a reason. Those rules are needed to make sure that everybody gets a fair shake. The rule book is coming my friends.......

I don't know anybody who likes 3 gun because it has no rule book. All matches have rules.

[ziebart]

The problem with the ear pro rule is slinging the rifle or shotgun. Headsets are more likely to come off than foamies. A person has to choose their equipment wisely. Also some competitors will wear double hearing protection for this very reason.

If as an RO you feel that a person needs a reshoot because they lost their ear pro, then petition the MD to add that rule before the match. I think most MD would look down on ROs making up their own rules. The MD has put a lot of time and energy into the match to get it how he thinks it needs to be run.

[Vlad]

If as an RO you feel that a person needs a reshoot because they lost their ear pro, then petition the MD to add that rule before the match. I think most MD would look down on ROs making up their own rules. The MD has put a lot of time and energy into the match to get it how he thinks it needs to be run.

I think an MD or rule set has issues if it doesn't include a requirement for RO's to do everything in their power to prevent injury to the shooters. Hearing damage is injury. If the MD has a problem with me as an RO preventing injury, then I don't want to be an RO for that MD, so really I couldn't care less if he looked up or down in my direction.

Edited to add: and speaking of rules: http://www.rock3gun.com/files/ProAm%20Rules%202013%20%281%29.pdf

1.7 ear protection is mandatory for participants spectators & range personnel while on or near the stage of fire.

Presumably if you have that rule you expect your RO's to enforce it.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Vlad

[ziebart]

I agree, if you feel strongly enough about something it is best to not put yourself in that position as an RO.

[Vlad]

I agree, if you feel strongly enough about something it is best to not put yourself in that position as an RO.

it isn't just feelings, it is liability as well for the match, officials, and range. Plus there is the flip side, if the rules include a "must have hearing protection" and you don't stop a shooter who lost theirs, is THAT grounds for a contest?

[Dan Sierpina]

If the shooter continues, how does the RO know he doesn't have plugs in also?

[B45C22]

I have always thought that the 3-gunners who love 3-gun because "we ain't go no inch thick rule book" are in for a rude awakening.

Because they haven't been shooting this way with thin rule books for 30 years? That's a long nap.

I think the (2) issue is bad RO'ing and that can happen regardless of rulebooks. Issue (1) .. well I wasn't there and frankly I'm kinda ok with the notion of having the option to use your handgun but being a significant advantage to using your shotgun. Its called planning and gaming the stage.

First of all, three gun hasn't been shot the way it is now for the last 30 years. 3 gun has exploded in the last few years. I think we all know that.

Lots more shooters+ lots more money at stake = much more need for better rules.

I have yet to see a ruleset for three gun that addresses calibration. That is a process that should be addressed. If the shooter shoots a popper in the calibration zone, it should go down. That is only fair. BUT that brings in the question of power factor, and I don't think anybody wants to have a chrono stage at a 3 gun match, so you just have to figure out where to stop that snowball from rolling. You have to decide how fair you want it to be. Ultimate fairness…..well, get ready for a chrono.

[J.Schmitt]

And hearing protection is usually required by the facility that the match is held at. If its an accident that caused the loss of ears then it should be addressed. If I was the RO and saw it, I would have told them to put the ears back on. If it is an intentional dislodging of the ears then its cheating.

I would have stopped shooting and put them back on, then finished the course. I wear plugs so it is not an issue, as someone above already stated.

Jay

[P.E. Kelley]

This IS 3 Gun. You knock your gear loose (other than a dropped gun) put it back on and continue. I

have watched it in USPSA matches first hard, where a competitor messes up a stage and knocks his ear pro

off and whines about a reshoot. In 3-Gun pull your pants up and resume shooting!

Calibration??? You made the call to shoot pew, pew loads at a popper that may or not be calibrated. The course description

provided for shotgun or pistol on that popper...If you didn't think to check it, then kid...you bought it.

Maybe more rules, maybe not. Logic IMHO seems to work. It is LOGICAL to restore YOUR personal protection devices before

continuing on. or should one unplug the light fixture after getting shocked or just continue on?

Edited August 23, 2014 by P.E. Kelley

[redial]

Well said, sir!

Mark

[ziebart]

Snip

I have yet to see a ruleset for three gun that addresses calibration. That is a process that should be addressed. If the shooter shoots a popper in the calibration zone, it should go down. That is only fair. BUT that brings in the question of power factor, and I don't think anybody wants to have a chrono stage at a 3 gun match, so you just have to figure out where to stop that snowball from rolling. You have to decide how fair you want it to be. Ultimate fairness…..well, get ready for a chrono.

SMM3G rules show calibration.

6.1.6 Knock-down targets will be calibrated before the event begins.

6.1.6.1 Handgun targets will be calibrated with a 9mm handgun using factory ammunition.

6.1.6.2 Shotgun targets will be calibrated with a 20 gauge shotgun, barrel length not to exceed 26”, using a factory 2½ dram, ⅞ ounce load

of #7½ or #8 birdshot.

6.1.6.3 The Range Master will designate specific supplies of 9mm and 20 gauge ammunition, and one or more handguns and shotguns, to be

used as official calibration tools only by the Range Master or designated testing personnel. Designated calibration firearms and

ammunition are not subject to challenge

[Neomet]

Yep, and those rules don't specify pistol or shotgun as the calibration tool on targets that can be engaged with either. Superstition this year had a couple poppers on stage 2 or 3 I forget which that maybe would fall, maybe wouldn't with bunny foo-foo rounds out of the pistol. RO even told us that calibration would be with the 20 gauge. I went with pistol and took off before seeing one of the poppers still standing there laughing at my hit in the calibration zone. I chose wrong. Lesson learned was bring major ammo for "maybe" poppers or use the SG. I sort of like having to make the decision.

[Jadeslade]

This IS 3 Gun. You knock your gear loose (other than a dropped gun) put it back on and continue. I

have watched it in USPSA matches first hard, where a competitor messes up a stage and knocks his ear pro

off and whines about a reshoot. In 3-Gun pull your pants up and resume shooting!

Calibration??? You made the call to shoot pew, pew loads at a popper that may or not be calibrated. The course description

provided for shotgun or pistol on that popper...If you didn't think to check it, then kid...you bought it.

Maybe more rules, maybe not. Logic IMHO seems to work. It is LOGICAL to restore YOUR personal protection devices before

continuing on. or should one unplug the light fixture after getting shocked or just continue on?

Yes. If somebody intentionally does it, out of here. If you continue on and have no ear pro-you are just stupid. Put your gun down on the ground, on safe, don't move , and put your ear pro on/in, and resume course of fire. I'm gonna go practice put ear pro back in on the clock. Never know.

[RJH]

If a competitor intentionally removes their eye or ear protection in USPSA, the rule book calls for match disqualification.

[toothandnail]

This IS 3 Gun. You knock your gear loose (other than a dropped gun) put it back on and continue. I

have watched it in USPSA matches first hard, where a competitor messes up a stage and knocks his ear pro

off and whines about a reshoot. In 3-Gun pull your pants up and resume shooting!

Calibration??? You made the call to shoot pew, pew loads at a popper that may or not be calibrated. The course description

provided for shotgun or pistol on that popper...If you didn't think to check it, then kid...you bought it.

I agree 100%

[Paul-the new guy]

This IS 3 Gun. You knock your gear loose (other than a dropped gun) put it back on and continue. I

have watched it in USPSA matches first hard, where a competitor messes up a stage and knocks his ear pro

off and whines about a reshoot. In 3-Gun pull your pants up and resume shooting!

Calibration??? You made the call to shoot pew, pew loads at a popper that may or not be calibrated. The course description

provided for shotgun or pistol on that popper...If you didn't think to check it, then kid...you bought it.

Maybe more rules, maybe not. Logic IMHO seems to work. It is LOGICAL to restore YOUR personal protection devices before

continuing on. or should one unplug the light fixture after getting shocked or just continue on?

Yes. If somebody intentionally does it, out of here. If you continue on and have no ear pro-you are just stupid. Put your gun down on the ground, on safe, don't move , and put your ear pro on/in, and resume course of fire. I'm gonna go practice put ear pro back in on the clock. Never know.

Jade I am pretty sure if you lay your gun on the ground you are getting a stage DQ on safe or not