Saw some silly stuff at the pro am today

[kurtm]

Wow, so we now have the same guys who say....tough...put it back on ON THE CLOCK!!! In another thread wanting to change the scoring so a malfunction or jam on a short stage won't "kill your match"....so yeah, I would say....Silly.....or maybe hypocritical.

[co-exprs]

Wow, so we now have the same guys who say....tough...put it back on ON THE CLOCK!!! In another thread wanting to change the scoring so a malfunction or jam on a short stage won't "kill your match"....so yeah, I would say....Silly.....or maybe hypocritical.

Oh, Snap!

[LoganbillJ]

Wow, so we now have the same guys who say....tough...put it back on ON THE CLOCK!!! In another thread wanting to change the scoring so a malfunction or jam on a short stage won't "kill your match"....so yeah, I would say....Silly.....or maybe hypocritical.

If you actually read the scoring thread you will understand where it came from. Personally I would rather all matches be scored total time. I am in the minority on this, and is the exact reason why an alternative method of scoring was brought up. Most shooters like points and is where you quote "won't kill your match" came from. So no, it is not hypocritical for me to say put the muffs back on on the clock when that is exactly how it should be. Sorry if thinking outside the box to benefit this sport is silly or hypocritical.

[kurtm]

First off I can't read so I can't possible understand so help me out here. A bunch of guys hate the scoring used presently because if anything happens on a fast, time wise, course like a malfunction, or ammo failure they loose a bunch of points, or even zero the stage. The general thinking is this is somehow unfair and the time it takes to clear/fix said problem shouldn't be counted against them very heavily, and yet they seem to want that very time to count against a person who looses his safety equipment as heavily as possible to the point of grounding the gun and go play where's Waldo with ear protection on the clock. Outside of "out of the box thinking" and you "personal belief in total time" how is this not Hypocritical?.....I don't want much of a penalty for an equipment failure for me.......but if some other guy loose his equipment he needs to be penalized the time to fix it.

To very loosely paraphrase a few on here.....this is a 3-gun forum....put on your big boy pants....not everything typed here is about you or your ideas.

Edited August 28, 2014 by kurtm

[dcloudy777]

I hate time-plus and think you should put your muffs back on on the clock.

So at least I'm consistently a jerk.

[P.E. Kelley]

Let me ask you Kurt...You have a long history in 3 Gun as a top competitor and as a range master and director of Major 3 Gun events.

How many times have you been "overseas" to shoot competition?...a dozen? So with some here getting a small glimpse into your

background....how would you rule in this ear and eye pro debate? I know it feels like posting here falls on deaf ears, but

I would certainly like to know your thoughts.

[bigbrowndog]

Whats sillier??? the fact that this topic has gone to 8 pages, or the fact that we're discussing if personal safety or competitor safety should be LESS important than ANYTHING ELSE!!!!!!

At what point do we say that a competitors safety and well being should take second place behind,..............ANYTHING!!!!!!!

Please post the matches that feel that way so I can avoid them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy Crap, I can't believe how some of you people think.

Whats next, "its Ok if you break the 180 and fire a shot,.... as long as nobody was

hurt"???????????

trapr

Edited August 28, 2014 by bigbrowndog

[bigbrowndog]

As for question #2, last year we had an identical issue. however the RM's had previously shot all the optional steel targets with both pistol and SG to determine which gun took the targets over easiest. We then used the weakest gun to calibrate targets when needed, on the stage in question we used a SG to verify the target requested, which had been shot at with a pistol.

While we did this several well known shooters, top performers, former Pres's, etc. voiced thier concerns saying that it was completely unfair to use a SG to calibrate the target when it was shot with a pistol. Since they hadn't shot the stage yet, I did not tell them that we were using the weakest gun used to drop the poppers, this would have given them an advantage over the other folks that didn't now this info.

So just because a SG was used to calibrate a popper doesn't mean that the wrong gun was used!!!! calibrating the popper from the closest distance available to the shooter is completely fair.

Trapr

[kurtm]

I never said anyone was a jerk, hypocritical maybe, but not a jerk. Believe it or not, I was not really even thinking of Mr. Loganbill when I posted the silly/hypocritical post. He took it personally, and now he won't believe the previous statement because he feels personally attacked and that is just fine. He is not the first person I have spooled up and won't be the last, but if he bothers to re-read his own thread he will find that we were in more agreement than not. Anyway I digress.

Pat, my personal feelings on this whole thing is that the R.O. is there to maintain the safety of the shooter and attendees first and to assist the shooter as a close second. If I found out one of my R.O.'s HADN'T stopped a shooter for something like this, he wouldn't be an R.O. for me much longer. We have all been so spooled up that something like loosing our ear protection might even go un-noticed and we can do irreparable damage before we come to our senses....R.O. has to be there to help.

Old guy story time.....so go ahead and make fun, but back in the day almost all matches were the "put on your big boy pants" tough sh#t for you matches. At one back east, a competitor caught a foot exiting an armored vehicle, fell flat on his face. He broke his eye protection which fell in two and knocked of his ear protection. Being nice and tough, and the R.O. yelling go, go, go, he jumped up and soldiered on. Latter in the stage, while shooting at some close steel with his pistol a big chunk of bullet came back off the steel and hit him just above his left eye and burrowed in so deep he had to go get it cut out. Upon his return he was telling everyone how lucky he was that he had his glasses on. The R.O. told him NO, his glasses hadn't been on and that when he face planted they broke and fell off. The guy turned white. He never even noticed they were gone because of hitting his face. He had assumed his glasses broke saving his eye. The R.O. had seen it and not only didn't stop him, but yelled for him to continue. Now let me ask you Pat, how big of big boy pants would it have took if that fragment had hit his eye....AND HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT!!!!!! So no I don't feel that stopping the shooter for safety equipment failure is a bad thing. Matter of fact I feel that is what the R.O. is there for. Its all macho and sh#t to say put on your big boy pants this is 3-gun, but shooter safety is the R.O.'s job and this one failed miserably!!! So did the R.M. for not issuing a re-shoot and NOT admonishing his R.O.to keep safety in mind.

Edited August 28, 2014 by kurtm

[OPENB]

Thank you, Kurt & Trapr. Common sense seems to be an uncommon virtue more and more these days.

[CJW]

I hate to say this, but to some extent Kurt and Trapr's posts can be seen as supporting the notion of addressing this in the rules, because ROs come from different backgrounds and, unless they are all told to call things certain ways, you won't get consistency.

The way I see it is, if the MD sees one of the ROs' jobs as preventing a shooter from shooting without eye or ear protection, then it would be important enough for him to say that when the ROs are briefed for the match to make sure everyone does it the same way. If it's worth doing that, then it is worth putting into the written rules so all the competitors, too, know how that situation will be handled. Doesn't matter a whit to me if the rule is "STOP!" and reshoot or "EARS!" and the clock keeps running but you better not break a shot until your ears are back on, either, as long as I, the paying customer, know before I step up to stage one. If I am on the clock to fix it, then I want to know if I am allowed to ground a gun on safe to fix the problem without getting DQed.

[kurtm]

Trust me you don't get consistency when you do tell them to do it a certain way, heck you can even write it and it won't be a sure thing.

Edited August 28, 2014 by kurtm

[LoganbillJ]

Trust me you don't get consistency when you do tell them to do it a certain way, heck you can even write it and it won't be a sure thing.

This is correct. I wouldn't be surprised if some RO's don't even read the rules before ROing a specific match. Most just fall back on what they are used to.

I may have been a bit out of line with my previous comment to Kurt. I apologize for that. Anyway, carry on with discussion.

[Stlhead]

I think we can all agree that when the dislodged protective equipment falls into a lake, breaks, or becomes wedged into the RO's ass the shooter should be stopped and given a reshoot. I can be cool with that, but if the shooters eye or ear protection is just dislodged, dropped on the ground or otherwise rendered non effective, I think the shooter should fix the situation before continuing with the stage, if the RO notices they are continuing without proper gear then they should be stopped and the stage scored. There needs to be some degree of personal responsibility here, if fogged up glasses are grounds for a reshoot then why should we even play?

[bigbrowndog]

your last word pretty much sums up the reason for giving reshoots,..........play!!

None of us are making a living at this,.......heck FB3G gave Taran 5-6 reshoots on the shootoffs against Bruce P, because of "gun malfs", excessive?????....OK, but a reasonable benefit of the doubt should always go to the shooter, no matter who the shooter is.

trapr

[EaZeNuTZ33]

IMO......you knock your eye/earpro off because you are frustrated, the stage stops and you take your time and FTE penalties at that point. You fall, stumble, catch our earpro on a prop and lose it, you stop and reshoot the stage. Safety is numero uno and shooting stops when risks elevate, details on penalties or reshoots can be figured out later.

[thermobollocks]

We require shooters to do a lot of important things: Not blow themselves up with bad ammo, not bust their delicate squishy parts with a bullet, and not to bust anyone else's... Where is the line between responsibility and liability? Where should it be?

[kurtm]

Hey toothy, my big boy pants have been on so long they should be considered a wardrobe malfunction! No need to apologize, it is just an Inter-web discussion where you can't see the other guys expressions to know how they mean it.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

The line is ANY place you can stop them from damaging themselves or others when it is something you can feasibly catch. If YOU think you notice a squib, do you stop the shooter, or let them continue firing? If you let them continue firing because "I'm not gonna hold your hand"....I wouldn't want you as an RO at any match I attend, whether I'm the shooter or a spectator. We can't go around inspecting ammo and trying to figure out if any of your rounds are 1 grain too heavy, or 2-3 grains too light. We DO stop people from using crossdraw holsters, we stop people from having hot pistol chambers when going prone, we remove pocked or damaged steel from the course of fire, and we stop people when we CAN stop a potential issue from happening.

I don't want to hold anyone's hand, but common sense, as uncommon as it is becoming, should be utilized when possible.

[Stlhead]

I am going to drive around the range with my seatbelt off while talking on the phone. Are you going to stop me and give me a reshoot on my last stage? Gosh knows we want to make sure everyone is safe! Yes it is a game, and we do do it for fun, but awarding reshoots for tripping is no different then allowing reshoots for fumbled shotgun shells. Want to keep people from shooting without eye and ear protection, DQ them for doing it, but don't give a reshoot for it any more than you would give a reshoot for not tying your shoes or fastening your pistol belt. Common sense says it is bad for your ears to shoot a gun without eye and ear protection, not that you should be rewarded for trying to do so.

A more interesting question is why are we compelled to argue about this? Are we so hard up for shit to do? I have an excuse, I was trying to avoid working, but I think I just wasted my last brain cell on this . I am starting to think that Al Gore invented the internet as some sort of cruel payback for the hanging chad.

[Vlad]

I'm sorry that a conversation about gun safety has disrupted your afternoon.

[Religious Shooter]

I don't think the argument is about safety.

99% of us are in the same page in that the shooter needs to put their eyes/ears back on.

The argument is if they get a reshoot or not.

[Vlad]

I don't think the argument is about safety.

99% of us are in the same page in that the shooter needs to put their eyes/ears back on.

The argument is if they get a reshoot or not.

Yep, and that's the same thing. I'm of the mind set that asking the shooter to run back to get his ears while handling guns, getting annoyed at the poor stage run, losing focus, etc is a safety issues.

I know that some people can do it safely, maybe even most, but how about that 15 year old? How about random new shooter? I know we want to think we are all big boys, and maybe in something like 3GN that stuff can fly, but 3gun is no longer an exclusive club of well experienced shooters.

It is the price you pay for growth. If you want a mature sport, it needs mature rules sets.

[kurtm]

Actually it,s not that bad to shoot without eye protection for your ears Stlhead, ( just really read your post ). Now let me ask you, you are about to shoot a stage and you leading foot is under a root. The R.O. sees this! Should he give you a beep knowing full well you are going to fall and perhaps do some real damage to your person or gear, or beep that shit anyway and laugh at you while you bleed? Hows about...warning!!! Old guy stuff....the R.O. sees the strap of a parachute harness is under your pistol and if you move it will yank that HOT pistol out of the holster and it will bounce around on the ground hot or worse??? Beep that shit, or intervene? Or just laugh while someone takes one for the team?

We are not giving reshoots for just tripping, if we were Jimmy Hendix would still be playing. As long as you land SAFE get up and continue on, but if it isn't safe for the shooter to continue a bit of common sense needs to prevail.

Vlad, cool down on my amigo Stlhead, he is as sarcastic as me and has big long sticks to poke the bear. as for his last brain cell....well I hope mine die alongside his while drinking at a match!

[kurtm]

Wow Vlad was typing while I was! What he typed is extremely pertinent to this discussion! He is spot on on this!